How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School's #1 Professor)

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Alison Wood Brooks is the Harvard Business School professor behind the most popular course at HBS — a class on how humans talk to each other, distilled from a decade of Conversation Science research. She gives Mel Robbins the full framework: TALK = Topics, Asking, Levity, Kindness. Her core premise is that every relationship in your life is a repeated sequence of conversations, and marginal improvements compound across thousands of interactions into a radically different career and marriage. The entire episode is a masterclass in the mechanics a distribution-starved founder needs most: asking better questions in customer interviews, deploying levity to win status in pitch meetings, handling interrupters and hurtful comments on the fly, and routing around the Uncle Paulies who dominate team meetings. This is the one on communication to save.

Key Takeaways

Conversations are the unit of a life. Brooks's radical framing: you're going to have thousands of conversations with every person who matters — spouse, cofounder, biggest customer. Getting each one 5% better compounds into an entirely different trajectory. Communication is not a soft skill; it's the accumulator for everything else.
The TALK framework compresses the whole field into 4 letters. Topics, Asking, Levity, Kindness — memorize them. Every mistake people make in conversation collapses into one of those four.
10% of people prep for conversations. The other 90% are leaving wins on the table. Topic Prep for just 30 seconds before a meeting produces measurably better conversations — even when you never use the prepped topics. The prep itself is the unlock.
Follow-up questions are the single highest-leverage move in a live conversation. They prove you were listening (you literally can't ask one if you weren't), and they scale infinitely without needing any preparation. The anti-pattern to avoid: Boomerasking — asking a question just to pivot the answer back to yourself.
One laugh on a pitch call tilts the vote in your favor. Brooks's research shows a single successful joke dramatically raises Status and likelihood of being picked as the group's leader. Levity is not a distraction from gravity — it's the pairing that makes gravity bearable.
Status is topic-dependent, not a permanent trait. You can be "low status" on tech architecture and "high status" on customer pain three minutes later in the same meeting. Never internalize a temporary deficit as identity. The status-raising move when you feel outgunned: ask a clarifying question.
Handle interrupters by routing around them, not confronting them. In a group, use Eye Gaze and direct questions to redirect airtime. "Sarah, tell us about the team you're coaching" moves the room without making Uncle Paulie defensive.
Hurtful comments come from love in disguise. When someone you trust cuts you, the antidote is the Receptiveness Framework from Julia Minson's research: acknowledge, affirm, avoid because, and use the Division of Self move to name two truths at once without stonewalling.

[3:23] The TALK Framework — How Harvard's #1 Professor Thinks About Conversation

Alison Wood Brooks is a behavioral scientist and professor at Harvard Business School who trained at Wharton studying emotions, negotiation, and how humans talk about what they feel. She was originally recruited to Harvard to teach the school's legendary Negotiation course — the one whose frameworks are now taught at every business school and law school on earth. After four years of watching already-strategic MBAs get marginally more strategic, she noticed something was missing: you only negotiate for a house or a salary every few months, but you talk to people all day, every day [6:49]. There was no course for that. So she built one.

That course is Talk (course) — officially titled "Talk: How to Talk Goodter in Business and Life", and yes, "goodter" is intentional [4:01]. The deliberate grammatical middle finger signals two things at once: first, the balance of Gravity and Levity the class insists on (serious subject, but no safety without play); second, the "good" root — the goal of Kindness toward the person across from you. The course is waitlisted, top-rated, and became the basis of her book Talk (book).

The framework distills a decade of Conversation Science into four letters [15:11]: T — Topics (what you choose to talk about, what you raise, what you don't). A — Asking (questions, follow-ups, the relentless discipline of pulling on threads). L — Levity (humor, play, the thing that makes people feel safe enough to actually engage). K — Kindness (perspective-taking — the muscle of stepping out of your own head). Brooks argues these four compress the insurmountable laundry list of conversational mistakes into something a human can actually hold in working memory [8:40].

Her core premise is quietly radical: every relationship in your life is just a repeated sequence of conversations [1:59]. If each one gets marginally better, the compounding reshapes your career, your marriage, your team. The payoff she names is Status — not class or pedigree, but what she calls "riz" [9:47]: likability, respect, influence inside whichever room you're standing in.

Why are most people bad at it? Not personality — Egocentrism [10:57]. Our brains are built for survival, wired to track our own perspective first. Good for hunter-gatherers, terrible for connection. Researchers have converged on the finding that failures of Perspective Taking are the single greatest barrier to both conflict resolution and genuine connection [13:25]. Conversation, she insists, is the opposite of public speaking. It's not about you. It's about what you and the other person can build together [14:52].

[2:02]

"Every relationship in your life is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. So even if each of those conversations gets a little bit better, this short time that we have on the earth, everything about it is going to get better." — Alison Wood Brooks

[3:01]

"How we talk is who we are and what we're able to do in the world." — Alison Wood Brooks

[15:35] T — Topics: Prep Them, Switch Them, Don't Be Afraid of Them

Alison Wood Brooks opens the TALK Framework with the most counterintuitive letter: T is for Topics. Her core argument — backed by her lab's research — is that almost nobody preps for conversations, and the people who do (even for 30 seconds) have measurably better ones.

The stat that should stop every founder cold [16:51]: only 10% of people think about what they're going to talk about before a meeting, date, or dinner. We obsess over what to wear and where to meet, then walk in empty-handed on the only thing that actually matters — the conversation itself.

Brooks's research on Topic Prep [18:06]: subjects who spent just 30 seconds brainstorming possible topics before a conversation had measurably better outcomes — more enjoyable, more fluent, less anxious — even when they didn't end up raising the prepped topics. The prep itself is the unlock. It gives you a back pocket of options for "the panicky moments" [18:34] — when a thread dies and you don't know where to go next.

The second insight is the permission to switch topics more often. Most of us stick with whatever's in front of us — the weather, the appetizer — because it's easy [17:54]. Brooks's finding: prepped people switch faster and land on things that are mutually interesting.

The resistance she hears most [17:32]: "I shouldn't need to prep for people I know well." That's exactly why you default to "How are the kids? How's work?" with your spouse, parents, or longtime colleagues. Familiarity breeds laziness, not depth. For introverts [19:26], topic prep is the single greatest tool they can add, because most introvert panic comes from not knowing what to say. Prep removes the panic at the source.

The tactical hack [19:56]: you already know who you're going to see today. Prep personalized topics per person. Brooks's sister used ChatGPT to generate questions for their 70-something parents in upstate New York — "the internet knows that demographic better than we do" [21:44]. Same move works for a difficult colleague you've had friction with: ask the model what they'd want you to bring up.

[18:21]

"The people who have prepped, even for 30 seconds, even if they don't end up raising those topics, their conversation is better. It's more enjoyable, it's more fluent, you're less anxious." — Alison Wood Brooks

[22:22] A — Asking: The Most Underrated Skill in Conversation

The second letter of the TALK Framework is Asking — and Alison Wood Brooks frames it as the single highest-leverage move you can make inside a live conversation. Topic prep happens before. Asking is the trick you deploy in the moment, when your brain is already drowning in the cognitive load of listening, processing, and trying to sound interesting. You don't need to invent anything. You just listen to what your partner said and ask more about it [22:28].

Brooks teaches an exercise at HBS called "neverending Follow-up Questions" [23:54]. She demos it on Mel with something as mundane as "what did you have for breakfast?" — then drills in: what was in the smoothie, what's your dream breakfast, where does the need for variety come from [24:03]. Within 90 seconds, Mel feels genuinely seen. Her reaction nails the mechanic: "In order to be interesting, be interested in somebody else" [25:09]. Follow-ups are the gold standard because they prove you were listening — you literally cannot ask one if you weren't.

Brooks's students push back: isn't this manipulative? Her answer is that the nudge doesn't replace sincerity — it surfaces it. You actually do care; you just need the scaffolding to act on it [25:30].

So why do people fail to ask? Two reasons [28:42]. First, raw self-centeredness — they're too busy rehearsing what they'll say to dazzle you. Second, fear: fear of being intrusive, fear of looking incompetent, fear that asking reveals they should already know. Brooks's research says those fears are almost always misplaced. She coins a label for chronic offenders — ZQs, Zero Questioners [26:07] — and tells a story about walking out of a date after 20 minutes because the guy asked her nothing [27:24]. Two dates without a question, she says, is a legitimate reason to stop dating someone.

For founder-CEO reality: this is the operating manual for every customer interview, discovery call, and investor meeting. The move is almost stupid in its simplicity — follow up on the last sentence the other person said. Avoid Boomerasking, the trap where you ask a question just to swivel the answer back to yourself. Use Open-ended Questions ("what was the best part of your day?" beats "how was your day?") to give them room to reveal what actually matters. Every ZQ founder on a sales call is leaving information — and revenue — on the table. The people who run the best discovery calls aren't the ones with the sharpest pitch. They're the ones whose curiosity is louder than their ego.

[23:29]

"You don't need to have prepped it ahead of time. All you need to do is listen to what your partner is saying and ask about it. Ask more about it." — Alison Wood Brooks

[26:16]

"Don't leave a conversation having asked zero questions." — Alison Wood Brooks

[36:03] L — Levity: The Secret Weapon Most People Are Afraid to Use

Alison Wood Brooks calls Levity the third pillar of the TALK Framework, and she's adamant it's the most underrated. Levity isn't just jokes — it includes "unfunny moments of warmth." Her one-liner: levity is the antidote for boredom [36:17].

Most people obsess over conversations that blew up in conflict. Brooks says the real killer is quieter — disengagement. The moment either person checks out, connection dies and progress stops. Levity, those "fleeting moments of sparkle and fizz," yanks people back in [36:43].

The self-deprecation trick — and its asymmetry [37:20]. Brooks's research finds that leaders and high-status people get massive upside from mocking themselves or sharing their failure stories. It signals "I'm human like you" and deepens trust. But she flags a critical asymmetry: if you're perceived as low status, self-deprecation can backfire and make people question your competence. Know where you sit before you swing.

Status isn't fixed — it's topic-dependent [39:04]. Status is "liking and respect in the eyes of others," and it shifts conversation to conversation, topic to topic. You can be low status on tech architecture and high status on customer pain three minutes later. Don't internalize a feeling of being the lowest in the room as a permanent identity.

The magic trick when you feel outgunned [40:30]: ask questions. Brooks argues that saying "hold on — you're 15 steps ahead, can you back up?" is a status-raising move. It signals confidence, trust, and that you're the one making sure everyone comes along. Experts don't know what non-experts don't know — the questioner does everyone a favor.

In sales calls and team meetings, Gravity and Levity is a legitimate pairing, not a distraction. One well-timed laugh on a pitch increases the odds the prospect "votes" for you. Share a real failure on the path from zero to product. And when a technical conversation gets heady, slow it down with a question — it reads as leadership, not weakness.

[41:57]

"If you can make people laugh even one time in a conversation, they are so much more likely to vote for you as the leader of that group. Just one joke. It's a core determinant of earning status — and keeping it." — Alison Wood Brooks

[42:44] K — Kindness: Being a Good Person When You Talk

The final letter of the TALK Framework is the one Alison Wood Brooks says everyone nods at and almost no one actually executes. Kindness isn't the soft, greeting-card version — it's a precise set of behaviors you can name, practice, and fail at in measurable ways [42:55]. Brooks spent years asking a blunt question: what do kind people actually do, moment to moment, when they're in conversation? The emerging science of Conversation Science is finally answering it [43:11].

She breaks it into two concrete moves. First, respectful language — the moment the other person feels hurt, othered, excluded, or bullied, "you have lost this kindness goal. It's gone" [43:35]. There's no recovery inside the same exchange. Second, responsive listening — putting in the effort to actually hear the other person and showing you're hearing them with both words and non-verbals [43:43]. This is the hinge between being "nice" (performative, pleasant, hollow) and being kind (genuine attention to the other person's experience). Active Listening is the mechanism; kindness is the intent behind it.

The common failure modes are the ones every leader falls into under load: interrupting, one-upping, pivoting to your own story, giving advice when empathy was the ask, listening to respond instead of listening to understand.

Brooks's tactical prescription for colleagues is disarmingly simple: before every interaction, ask what they find valuable. And if you don't know, just ask — "What are you excited about lately? What are you struggling with that I might help with?" [44:14]. That single habit rewrites the default equilibrium most working relationships drift into [45:30]. Kindness, done this precisely, is the trust layer that makes every other part of the framework work.

[44:28]

"The thing that makes kindness so hard is that it is effortful and it's constant. We have to battle against all of these other things that are draining our resources." — Alison Wood Brooks

[46:41] Mastering Small Talk: Talking to Anyone, Anywhere

Alison Wood Brooks opens with a concession to every hater: yes, Small Talk is shallow, often meaningless, and there is a small alarm bell in your head asking "why can't we get to the real stuff?" But it is non-negotiable. Small talk is how every conversation between strangers, reacquaintances, and even spouses at the end of a day actually begins. It is the pregame, the warm-up, the place where you search for better things. The mistake is treating it as the destination instead of the launchpad.

Her mental model is the Topic Pyramid. Three layers:

Small talk — weather, weekend, food. Topics anyone can discuss with anyone.
Tailored talk — more personal, more specific, more disclosure. Something the other person is genuinely jazzed about.
Deep talk — the magical layer. You know it when you are there.

The move is to climb. Brooks prepares small-talk questions that function as launchpads — questions engineered to surface something real fast. Her two favorites: "What are you good at that you really hate doing?" and "What are you bad at that you wish you were better at?" Mel answers "picking up dog poop" and within 30 seconds they are discussing caretaking, parenting, and hormones. That is the pyramid working. A banal prompt, two follow-up questions, and you are in tailored territory. Follow-up Questions are the elevator between floors — the more you ask, the higher you go.

Deep talk is not the goal of every conversation — your barista does not want it, and Brooks jokes that your colleagues will "file a restraining order." The skill is knowing when the context permits depth and then appreciating it when it arrives. On endings, recent research is liberating: nobody knows when to end a conversation. Somebody always wants more or less. Accept the awkwardness and use a clean exit — "This was great. I loved it. Can't wait for the next one. Bye." For founder discovery calls, the pyramid is the framework: prep two launchpad questions per call, use follow-ups as the elevator, and stop treating small talk as wasted minutes — it is where trust is built.

quote

"The key to being a good conversationalist is not about being interesting. It's about being interested in the other person... How do we together find the fun? Not how do I be funny?" — Alison Wood Brooks

[52:03] When Someone Talks Over You or Dominates the Room

Brooks makes a distinction to internalize before doing anything else. There are two kinds of Interruptions. On-topic interruptions — finishing each other's sentences because you are both excited — are great. Do more of those. Off-topic interruptions — the domineering cut-off that signals "I do not care what you were saying" — are the rude ones, and they exist almost exclusively in group settings. One-on-one, you have easy tools. In groups, power asymmetry makes reclaiming airtime genuinely hard.

Her first move is traffic direction. Instead of confronting Uncle Paulie who holds court at every family dinner, turn your body, raise a hand, and redirect: "Sarah, I wanted to hear about that basketball team you're coaching — what can you tell us?" You have just moved the entire room's attention with one sentence. You do not fight the dominator; you route around them.

Her second move comes from research on Eye Gaze. Humans instinctively look at the highest-status person in a group, which makes low-status members literally invisible and signals to them that they should not speak. Brooks ran experiments where leaders made deliberately equitable eye contact with everyone in the group. Later in the same conversation, low-status members spoke up on their own — without being cold-called (which is mortifying if they have nothing ready). For team meetings: your gaze is a broadcast. Spread it on purpose.

On being interrupted yourself — especially relevant given research showing women are interrupted far more at work and at home — Brooks suggests a light joke in the moment ("Let me just finish my thought") because everyone in the room has already clocked the dynamic. If you cannot joke, she offers a pre-meeting move: tell a trusted ally beforehand. "This person always cuts me off. Could you say something like, 'I'd love to hear Allison finish what she was saying'?" It is not aggressive, it is not offensive, it is collaborative — and the ally probably does want to hear you finish. This is Topic Prep applied to defense: you prepared for the situation, so you are ready when it happens.

quote

"Eye gaze is this much more gentle, more subtle way of saying, 'Hey, I see you. I care about you. I want to hear from you.'" — Alison Wood Brooks

[59:05] Handling Hurtful Comments and Hard Conversations

Belittling comments usually leak out from people we love most, Brooks observes, and they are almost never about the thing being said. They are about the speaker's own insecurity, fatigue, or stress, escaping sideways. That reframe matters because hurtful remarks in "easy" conversations shoot straight down to what she calls the "hot magma at the core of who we are" — the identity layer. Our default response is defensiveness, silence, or escalation. None of those work.

The antidote comes from emerging research on receptiveness by Hanne Collins, Mike Yeomans, and Julia Minson. It is a concrete language recipe — the Receptiveness Framework — for staying in the conversation without escalating:

Acknowledgement — "What I'm hearing is..."
Affirmation — "It makes sense that you feel that way."
Positive framing — avoid dogmatic words. Because and therefore are escalation words; they express too much certainty and are hard to receive.
Division of Self — separate the roles you are holding in the moment.

The Division of Self move is the sharpest tool. Mom says, "I don't understand why you can't meet somebody." You respond: "As your daughter, I'm so grateful you love me enough to want this for me. At the same time, putting on my friend-hat — saying this isn't actually helpful to me right now." Two truths, one breath. You are not stonewalling, you are not agreeing to disagree — you are naming the love and naming the hurt simultaneously. This is Conversation Repair in real time.

If the other person is already overheated, the research is blunt: you are too late. Once the body is activated it takes roughly 20 minutes to return to the "green zone." Do not try to resolve it in the moment. Call a break — "Let's go for a walk. I'm getting a drink. Let's pick this up in a bit." Change the room, change the state, then return. For repeat offenders who ignore feedback, Brooks gives permission to simply not engage — but do it with a topic pivot, not stonewalling. "Hey, what TV show are you watching?" is the graceful escape.

Her closing note is about grace: conversations are train wrecks by design, nobody is perfect at them, and if the hurtful comment is born of love, count yourself lucky. For giving feedback to the team or receiving it from customers and investors, the receptiveness recipe is the move: acknowledge, affirm, avoid because, and divide the self.

quote

"It makes sense that you feel that way... I realize you're a human being and I love and respect you, but also what you just said was hurtful to me. If you can come with that mindset — both can be true." — Alison Wood Brooks

People Mentioned

Alison Wood Brooks — Harvard Business School professor, author of Talk (book), creator of the TALK framework. The entire episode is her.
Mel Robbins — host of The Mel Robbins Podcast, former lawyer turned behavior-change evangelist; author of The Let Them Theory and The 5 Second Rule.
Julia Minson — Harvard Kennedy School researcher behind the Receptiveness Framework for cross-disagreement conversation.
Hanne Collins — co-author with Brooks and Minson on the receptiveness language research.
Mike Yeomans — Imperial College researcher who co-developed the receptiveness language work; studies computational approaches to conversation.

One Thing to Act On

Before every customer call, pitch, and 1:1 next week, spend 30 seconds writing 3 topics on a Post-it. Not an agenda. Topics. One for rapport, one for the substantive ask, one for the unexpected thread you'd love them to pull on. That's it. Brooks's research says you probably won't even use them — and your conversations will still get measurably better. Cost: 2 minutes per day. Return: every discovery call for FeatureOS churn and every SupportWire early-access pitch surfaces 30% more signal because you stopped winging it. This is the smallest, cheapest, most testable change in the episode. Start Monday.

Raw Transcript

Auto-captions from YouTube. Folded by default — expand if you need to grep the source or pull an exact quote.

0:00 Every person you know, every 0:02 relationship in your life is a repeated 0:04 sequence of conversations over time. So 0:06 even if each of those conversations 0:07 [music] 0:08 gets a little bit better, this short 0:10 time that we have on the earth, 0:11 everything about it is going to get 0:13 better. 0:15 Communication is everything. [music] 0:16 Everything. It's a series of tiny 0:18 choices that you're making at every 0:20 moment of every conversation. 0:22 >> And you have a fourpart [music] 0:23 framework that helps us communicate more 0:26 effectively. Can you tell me what the 0:28 four-part framework [music] is? 0:30 >> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics, 0:33 A stands for [music] asking, L is for 0:35 levity, and K is for kindness. In my 0:38 [music] class, we do an exercise called 0:40 neverending follow-up questions. 0:41 >> Uh-oh. I have a feel like we're about to 0:43 do this. 0:44 >> Do you want to try it? 0:45 >> Yes. 0:47 >> Like, we're all on these journeys 0:49 looking for those magical moments of 0:51 connection, and sometimes they happen. 0:53 This is where real power and authority 0:54 and influence come from. When we think 0:56 of people who are charismatic and 0:58 competent, [music] this is what they're 1:00 doing. 1:00 >> And that's what you're going to teach us 1:01 today. 1:02 >> That's what I'm going to teach you 1:02 today. 1:04 >> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, welcome to 1:06 the Mel Robbins podcast. 1:08 >> I'm so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you. 1:10 >> I am so excited to just dig into your 1:14 research and learn everything that we 1:16 can learn from this crazy popular class 1:18 that you teach at Harvard Business 1:20 School. But here's where I want to 1:21 start. There is a person listening right 1:23 now who has no time 1:25 >> and yet they found time and made time 1:28 >> to be with you and me right now. What 1:32 can the person listening expect to 1:35 change about their life? If they take 1:36 everything that you're about to teach us 1:38 and they try it and they put it to use 1:41 if they really take what we talk about 1:43 to heart, I think everything about their 1:46 life could get better. your love life, 1:49 your relationship with your children, 1:51 your relationship with your parents, 1:53 your work, your relationships with your 1:56 colleagues, what you're able to get done 1:57 together, everything, every person you 1:59 know, every relationship in your life is 2:02 a repeated sequence of conversations 2:04 over time. So even if each of those 2:07 conversations gets a little bit better, 2:09 this short time that we have on the 2:11 earth, everything about it is going to 2:12 get better. 2:14 >> Wow. 2:15 You just said our whole life is going to 2:17 get better. Why does communication 2:18 matter so much? 2:20 >> Communication is everything. Everything. 2:22 So really, you can think of every 2:24 relationship in your life as this 2:25 repeated sequence of conversations. And 2:28 if you zero in on each one of those 2:30 conversations, it's a series of tiny 2:32 choices that you're making at every 2:34 moment of every conversation. And we're 2:36 about to do it right now, Mel. Um, every 2:39 moment you're making these choices. What 2:41 should we be talking about? What should 2:42 I be asking the other person about? When 2:45 should we be laughing? When should we be 2:46 crying? Uh when should I ask a question? 2:49 When should I share something of myself? 2:51 We're making these tiny micro decisions 2:53 all the way along. And it's going to 2:55 determine what we're able to do 2:57 together, what we're able to accomplish 2:59 together, what we're able to learn about 3:01 each other. How we talk is who we are 3:04 and what we're able to do in the world. 3:07 I love how you framed it because I was 3:09 sitting here thinking, I hope that she 3:11 can help me not have so many regrets 3:13 because I think a lot of us leave a 3:15 conversation, you're like, "Oh, I wish I 3:16 hadn't have said that." Or, "Oh, I wish 3:18 I would have brought that up." But 3:19 you're also talking about the power of 3:22 forward momentum. 3:24 >> Yeah. 3:24 >> By small shifts in these interactions 3:28 that we have with people at work, in our 3:30 love life, in our families that can 3:32 change everything. And you have earned 3:35 the right to talk about this and to 3:37 teach us this because you created and 3:40 you teach a wildly popular and 3:43 award-winning Harvard Business School 3:46 course. It is called Talk: How to Talk 3:48 Goodter in Business and Life. And I'm 3:52 not that good with grammar being 3:55 dyslexic, but I know that goodter is 3:58 probably not the right word. So, but I 4:00 have a feeling it's intentional. Why the 4:01 hell do you call it how to talk goodter 4:03 in business and life? 4:04 >> I have to tell you getting that that 4:06 course title approved by the administr 4:08 by the powers that be at Harvard is one 4:10 of the greatest accomplishments of my 4:12 professional life. It's sitting next to 4:14 so many serious courses like democracy 4:16 in America and capitalism in today's 4:18 age. Um it was intentional. It has a few 4:22 different meanings. Of course, it's 4:23 grammatically incorrect which drives 4:25 some people up the wall, but there's two 4:27 meanings. uh a huge part of the course 4:29 is about balancing gravity and levity. 4:33 >> And so I really wanted to signal that in 4:35 the course title. We're going to take 4:36 conversation, we're going to take our 4:38 work very seriously, but in order to do 4:40 that, we need to also maintain a spirit 4:42 of play and fun. We have to have fun 4:44 together or we aren't going to feel 4:46 safe. We're not going to be able to make 4:47 progress. Uh the word goodter also is 4:51 really rooted in this word good. Um 4:53 we're going to work towards a goal of 4:55 kindness. We want to be good people when 4:57 we're talking to other people and 5:00 hopefully a little bit goodter. 5:02 >> So I want to hear the story behind what 5:04 made you want to even create this 5:07 course? Because if you're really 5:08 thinking about it, you've got Harvard 5:10 Business School 11% acceptance rate. 5:12 Aren't the people going to Harvard 5:14 Business School already good at 5:15 communicating? 5:16 >> I know this is what everybody thinks and 5:18 and in a way yes and in a way no. Okay. 5:20 Okay. Uh when I was originally recruited 5:22 to be on the faculty at Harvard, I was 5:24 recruited to teach a course on 5:25 negotiation. 5:26 >> And by the way, the negotiation course 5:28 at Harvard is like legendary. 5:31 >> Yeah. Some of the some of my colleagues 5:33 were sort of the founders of this 5:35 framework that is now taught at every 5:37 business school, at every law school. Um 5:39 it's really an incredible course. 5:41 >> Why were they recruiting you? I don't 5:42 mean to be rude, but like what were you 5:44 doing at the time that made them go, "We 5:45 got to have Professor Brooks here." 5:47 [laughter] 5:47 >> Um well, I went to grad school. I went 5:50 to grad school in a business school at 5:51 Wharton in Philadelphia. I was obsessed 5:54 with humans and people and figuring us 5:57 all out. And I was a behavioral 5:58 scientist. And in grad school, I spent 6:01 my time studying emotions, the way that 6:03 we feel on the inside, but also how we 6:06 talk about our feelings with other 6:07 people. And one of the places that I 6:10 studied emotions was in negotiations. 6:13 When you put people in these difficult 6:14 situations, how do they feel? How are 6:17 their feelings influencing their 6:18 behavior? and what they're able to do 6:20 when they're negotiating. 6:21 >> Well, that's super cool. So, this is 6:23 your area of expertise. You get 6:24 recruited to go to Harvard Business 6:26 School to teach this course in 6:28 negotiation. What happened? 6:29 >> Yeah. So, I was there. I taught 6:30 negotiation for about four years. It's 6:32 an amazing course. You spend time 6:34 practicing in doing these role plays of, 6:37 okay, you're going to be you're the 6:39 manager of a factory and you need to 6:40 negotiate and procure some of these hard 6:42 things or oh, now you're going to 6:44 negotiate for a new house. Okay, let's 6:46 do that. Let's go practice. So you do 6:48 these role plays, 6:49 >> you learn great frameworks about how to 6:51 do it better. 6:52 >> But even as I was teaching this great 6:54 class and I could feel that my students 6:56 were getting so much value from it, I 6:58 realized that we were missing something. 7:00 >> Okay. 7:01 >> When I think about negotiations, you 7:03 realize how often am I doing that? How 7:05 often are you doing this? Um maybe 7:08 you're negotiating for a new car or a 7:10 new house or a higher salary. I don't 7:13 know, maybe once every two months, 7:16 maybe. And what I started to realize is 7:18 like, wait, but we have to talk to 7:20 people all day long, every day. And I 7:24 don't think of those as negotiations. 7:25 That seems like a different nut to 7:27 crack. 7:28 >> Yeah. 7:29 >> And many of our students at Harvard are 7:31 actually already quite strategic. So, 7:33 some of the lessons that we're teaching 7:34 them in negotiation are pretty intuitive 7:37 to them. We're taking strategic people 7:38 and like teaching them to be even more 7:40 strategic. And I was like, whoa, whoa, 7:42 whoa, whoa. I think what these people 7:45 need might be how do we teach them to be 7:47 more engaging and fun and funny and 7:50 interesting and dynamic and more 7:52 empathic. Um where's the course that can 7:56 help them to do that? 7:58 >> And there wasn't one. 7:59 >> Uh they've tried many ways over the 8:01 years and none of them have really 8:03 stuck. 8:04 >> Okay. So you come up with this course 8:06 called talk. 8:07 >> Yeah. 8:08 >> And based on your research, why is 8:11 communication so challenging for people? 8:13 Oh my gosh, communication is challenging 8:15 for a million reasons. Um, when you 8:18 think if you asked me to make a list of 8:20 the mistakes that people make in 8:23 conversation, I would go on and on. We 8:25 choose the wrong topics. We forget to 8:26 raise the topics that we should talk 8:28 about. We don't ask enough questions. We 8:30 ask too many questions. We're talk too 8:32 much about ourselves. We don't focus 8:34 enough on the other person. We brag. We 8:36 humble brag. We give backhanded 8:38 compliments. We we do all of these 8:40 things. The laundry list is so long it 8:44 feels almost insurmountable. 8:47 And I'm in my mind I'm like, wait, but 8:49 people can't keep all of those things in 8:51 their heads all the time. What they 8:53 really need is a simple framework that 8:56 can help them wrap their arms around 8:58 this vast ocean of complexity that is in 9:02 every conversation. And when you look 9:04 under the hood of every conversation, 9:06 you start to realize how complex it 9:08 really is. 9:08 >> And that's what you're going to teach us 9:09 today. That's what I'm going to teach 9:10 you. 9:10 >> This simple framework. Um, Professor 9:13 Brooks, before we jump into 9:16 the takeaways from this class and all of 9:20 the research that you've done on the 9:22 science of communication, can you just 9:25 tell me and the person who's listening, 9:28 how exactly does becoming a better 9:31 communicator impact you for real? Yeah, 9:34 becoming a better communicator is going 9:36 to help you gain and maintain higher 9:39 status. 9:39 >> What does that mean? 9:40 >> When I use the word status, what I mean 9:42 is um likability, respect, um power, uh 9:47 what the kids these days would call riz, 9:49 right? It's these pe people who have 9:51 high status are the ones we admire that 9:53 we like that have power in their groups 9:55 at work, in their friend groups, in 9:57 their families. And so when you hear me 9:59 say high status, I'm not talking about 10:01 like fancy or high fallutin or what 10:04 social class you're in. Literally in 10:06 your social group, are you respected? Do 10:09 you have power? Do you have influence? 10:12 >> Well, that's everything. 10:13 >> Yeah, it's everything. 10:14 >> Wow. So learning to be a better 10:17 communicator by really taking all this 10:20 science of communication that you teach 10:22 at Harvard Business School and applying 10:24 it means you'll have more respect. 10:26 You'll have more influence whether 10:28 you're talking about in your home with 10:29 your family or you're talking about with 10:31 your colleagues or you're talking about 10:32 in the classroom or the hospital you 10:34 work with. 10:35 >> We're really talking about your ability 10:38 to not only communicate but to be 10:40 respected and admired by your peers and 10:42 listened to. 10:42 >> That's right. and have a little fun 10:43 while you're doing it. 10:45 >> All right. Well, let's dig in to all of 10:47 your research. Um, what do you think is 10:49 the single biggest reason 10:52 >> why most people can't communicate 10:54 effectively? 10:55 >> Probably, if I was forced to choose the 10:57 single biggest reason is our human 10:59 nature of egoentrism. Uh, our 11:01 >> that's a big word. What does that mean? 11:03 >> Yeah. Self-centered. We're 11:04 self-centered. We're self-focused. Our 11:06 brains are built for survival. We're 11:09 focused on what is my perspective? How 11:11 can I stave off dangers and fears and 11:14 stay alive and sort of proliferate my 11:16 own life and protect my family? And 11:19 egoentric that that self-focus is good 11:22 for survival back when we were hunters 11:24 and gatherers, but in today's day and 11:26 age, it also holds us back from really 11:28 connecting with other people. You have 11:31 to relentlessly sort of fight against 11:33 your self-centered instincts to really 11:35 focus on another person. M Well, that's 11:38 true cuz you go into a conversation sort 11:40 of with that default mode of like what's 11:43 in this for me? 11:44 >> Yeah. 11:44 >> And if you're thinking about it from 11:47 what's in it for you, you're probably 11:50 already starting off on the wrong foot 11:52 >> in a bad place. Yes. 11:54 >> You know, I recently read research, 11:56 Professor Brooks, that every generation 11:58 is getting worse at communicating. Do 12:01 you think that's true? 12:03 >> I don't know. I don't think every 12:04 generation is getting worse. I think um 12:08 people human beings have probably always 12:10 struggled with conversation. Let me back 12:12 up for a moment. 12:13 >> In the book, we talk about conversation 12:15 as a coordination game. And a 12:18 coordination game is any sort of 12:20 decision you need to make independently 12:22 between two or more people uh where you 12:26 can't communicate. So the game of 12:28 chicken is a good example where you're 12:29 sort of hurdling towards each other and 12:31 you have to choose do I veer left or 12:32 veer right and both people have to 12:34 choose without talking to each other. 12:36 They have to coordinate. Okay. So a 12:39 conversation is like this game of 12:40 chicken except you're making these 12:42 relentless coordination decisions. 12:44 You're deciding what are we going to 12:45 talk about? What am I going to disclose 12:47 about it? How are we going to talk about 12:48 it? Are we going to be silly? Are we 12:49 going to be serious? Are we going to 12:51 >> am I going to talk about it at all? 12:52 Because now when you said chicken, I 12:54 thought, 12:54 >> wait a minute, the person listening, I 12:56 know me, has somebody in their life they 12:59 have to deal with that they can't quite 13:01 communicate with. 13:02 >> It can get very frustrating. 13:04 >> Yes. 13:05 >> And you know, we don't even think about 13:06 it. We just then start to avoid the 13:08 person that we're having trouble 13:09 communicating with. 13:10 >> What do you think all of us get wrong 13:12 when it comes to communication? 13:14 >> Oh, so there's this. So there's this 13:16 focus on the self which starts you from 13:18 a place of getting you off on a bad foot 13:21 and you're f often focusing on yourself 13:23 the whole way along. Uh researchers have 13:25 sort of found consensus on this idea 13:28 that failures and perspective taking 13:30 being able to understand the other 13:32 person's point of view and their mind is 13:34 the single greatest barrier to conflict 13:37 resolution and to connection. And that's 13:40 true at every moment of every 13:42 conversation. We struggle to understand 13:44 what the other person is thinking and 13:46 feeling and what they're going to say 13:47 and do next. We rely on our own beliefs, 13:51 our own opinions, our own feelings to 13:53 guess how somebody else is is feeling. 13:56 And we're really bad at guessing. 13:57 >> You know, I've already learned 13:58 something, which is I assumed, and I I'm 14:02 sure we'll get into it, that being a 14:04 better communicator is about you 14:07 speaking differently. 14:09 And what you're already kind of 14:11 signaling is, wait a minute, if you 14:13 can't actually understand that 14:14 communicating is about connecting with 14:16 somebody. Yeah. And being able to stop 14:19 yourself and truly step into somebody 14:22 else's shoes and imagine what they might 14:25 be feeling. If you can't do that, you 14:27 can't communicate. Is that what you're 14:28 basically saying? 14:29 >> That's exactly right. Because 14:30 conversation is co-constructed. It's 14:32 between two people or more. It's not a 14:35 you thing. It's not it's it's completely 14:37 separate from public speaking which 14:40 where it's like one person standing on a 14:42 stage not getting a response. Dialogue 14:45 is about back and forth. You take turns 14:47 speaking and listening and you don't 14:49 know what your partner's going to say 14:51 next, but you're going to have to 14:52 respond to it. It's cocreated. So, it's 14:55 really not about you. It's about you 14:57 plus the other person and what you can 14:59 build together. 15:00 >> I love that. And so, you've taken a 15:02 decade of research. 15:03 >> Yeah. And you have a fourpart framework 15:06 that helps us communicate more 15:08 effectively. Can you tell me what the 15:10 four-part framework is? 15:11 >> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics, 15:15 A stands for asking, L is for levity, 15:18 and K is for kindness. I realize you 15:21 take an entire semester at Harvard 15:23 Business School to unpack the four-part 15:26 framework, but today, Professor Brooks, 15:29 you are going to teach us this four-part 15:31 framework step by step. So, let's start 15:35 with the first part. T is for topics. 15:39 So, topics are the things we talk about, 15:42 right? If I asked you after this 15:44 recording to look back and say, "What 15:46 did we talk about?" You could your brain 15:48 would be really good at organizing and 15:50 categorizing. Oh well, we first we 15:52 talked about your course and then we 15:54 talked about topics and then this. 15:56 >> So your bra our brains are really good 15:57 at chunking things into segments into 16:00 topics. 16:01 >> Okay, 16:02 >> which is so helpful in practice because 16:05 it means that we can use that ability to 16:08 steer topics while we're talking to each 16:10 other. 16:10 >> But don't you have to be really good at 16:12 communicating in order to steer the 16:14 topics? 16:14 >> You do not have to be good. You just you 16:16 just have to know that it's happening. 16:18 And so I think often when you say like 16:20 top what topic you're going to talk 16:22 about, people think about the opening 16:23 topic like 16:24 >> well let's put us at the scene. How 16:26 would you use the t topic part of the 16:29 four-part framework to let's say you're 16:32 going out on a date. 16:33 >> Yeah. 16:33 >> Okay. How do you use topic to help you 16:36 be a better communicator? Anyone who's 16:38 going out on a date is already thinking 16:40 about what they're going to wear, how 16:42 they're going to do their hair, what 16:43 makeup they're going to put on, where 16:44 they're going to what restaurant they're 16:45 going to meet at, what activity they're 16:47 going to do. 16:48 >> We do all of this prep work ahead of 16:50 time. 16:50 >> Uhhuh. 16:51 >> Only 10% of people think about what 16:54 they're going to talk about once they 16:55 get there. 16:56 >> You're spending so much time showering 16:59 and getting dressed and making the 17:01 reservation at the restaurant. At the 17:03 same time, you should be thinking about 17:05 what are some things that'll be fun for 17:06 us to talk about once we're together. 17:08 So, topic prep. 17:10 >> That's step number one. Think ahead. 17:12 >> Wow. And you could do that for anything. 17:15 You could do that if you're getting 17:16 together with your family. So, if you're 17:17 tired of the same old same old with your 17:20 family, 17:20 >> like think about interesting things that 17:23 you could talk about or questions to 17:24 ask. How do you even teach yourself to 17:26 be good at topic prep if you've never 17:28 even thought about this? 17:29 >> You just have to start doing it. 17:30 >> What do you mean? So, a lot of people 17:32 are very averse to topic prep, 17:34 especially with people they know well. 17:36 They feel like they shouldn't need to 17:38 plan topics for someone that they're 17:40 very close to. They'll just know what to 17:42 talk about once they're together. 17:43 >> I'm guilty of that. 17:44 >> Yeah, it's normal. A lot of people feel 17:45 that way, 17:46 >> which is why we then go, "How are your 17:47 kids and how is work and what's going 17:49 on? 17:49 >> The weather, oh, let's talk about the 17:51 appetizer in front of us on this table." 17:54 We tend to grab things that are right 17:56 there in our environment that are easy 17:57 to talk about, but it doesn't mean it's 17:59 the right thing to talk about. It's not 18:00 the most fun thing to talk about a 18:03 little bit of forethought. So, we have 18:04 research on this. We've studied uh 18:06 people who we ask to even spend 30 18:09 seconds 30 seconds ahead of a 18:11 conversation brainstorming possible 18:13 topics that they could talk about. Then 18:15 we let them go and have their 18:17 conversation versus people who just walk 18:19 in and have the conversation like you 18:21 normally would have. The people who have 18:23 prepped, even for 30 seconds, even if 18:26 they don't end up raising those topics, 18:29 their conversation is better. It's more 18:31 enjoyable. It's more fluent. You're less 18:34 anxious. You know those little panicky 18:36 moments when you're not sure, you know 18:37 that something's getting boring and you 18:39 need to switch, but you don't know where 18:40 to go. Yes. 18:41 >> That doesn't happen anymore. You've got 18:43 options like in your back pocket, in 18:44 your mind. Oh, yeah. If there's a lag, I 18:47 need to remember to ask about their kid 18:48 who'd had tried out for the hockey team. 18:50 Right. So you've always got an option, a 18:53 backup plan for the panicky moments. 18:55 Turns out it makes a conversation much 18:57 more enjoyable as well. You tend to 18:59 switch topics a little more frequently 19:01 and you're more likely to land on things 19:03 that are mutually interesting to 19:05 everybody involved. So, if the person 19:07 listening right now is super 19:08 introverted, 19:09 >> yeah, 19:09 >> very shy, and they're now having a panic 19:11 attack about this idea of I got to come 19:14 with topics, what is the best way to 19:19 help you become good at doing this if 19:23 you don't think that this is going to 19:24 come naturally to you? 19:26 >> Totally. I think the first thing is 19:27 don't have a panic attack. This might be 19:29 the greatest ar tool that you've ever 19:31 added to your arsenal as an introvert in 19:33 your life because so much of why 19:35 introverts feel panicked once they're in 19:37 social situations is that they don't 19:39 know what to say. They don't really want 19:41 to approach these difficult moments. 19:43 Having some topics prepped eases all of 19:46 that. 19:46 >> And once you experience the magic of 19:48 topic prep in action, you're like, "Oh 19:50 my god, this is it. I should have been 19:52 doing this my whole life." For the most 19:54 part, you know who you're going to see 19:55 in a day. M 19:56 >> you might know the specific people 19:58 whether it's your kids and your spouse 20:00 and then the this set of colleagues and 20:02 then knowing who you're going to see 20:04 means that you can prep topics for all 20:06 of them in a personalized way. 20:08 >> So walk me through the day. 20:09 >> Yeah. Okay. So we're going through the 20:10 day. You wake up, you see your kids 20:12 before they get on the school bus and 20:14 you're talking to your spouse. Um you 20:16 can think about ahead of time what are 20:18 each of my kids doing today? Where what 20:20 are their pain points? What are they 20:22 probably feeling excited about? What are 20:24 they nervous about? what's going on in 20:26 their life? Do they have band at school? 20:28 Um, instead of just being like, remember 20:30 your trumpet? You could be like, you 20:32 know, how is band? What's going on? When 20:33 you're in band, how do you feel? What 20:35 are you looking forward to about it? 20:36 Right? Like get that's going to be so 20:38 much more interesting than just like 20:41 don't don't forget your trumpet and they 20:42 rush out the door. 20:43 >> Then you get to work and your colleague 20:45 who's kind of quiet. What's a topic that 20:47 you could bring up with a colleague? 20:48 >> Anything. I mean, it depends on the 20:49 colleague, right? Let's imagine that 20:51 it's a colleague that you love and you 20:53 are thinking about their life. Um, they 20:56 [snorts] just had a new child. I mean, 20:58 ask how that's going. You know, having a 21:00 new child is a traumatic and dramatic 21:02 thing. How's it going? Are you changing 21:04 so many diapers? Whatever. Or they had a 21:07 big, you know, they had a big 21:08 presentation last week. Um, how did it 21:10 go? What was good about it? What was 21:12 hard? Anything I can help you with on 21:13 it? 21:14 >> Now, give me one for my mom and dad 21:15 because I have the same conversation 21:17 with them over and over and over. How'd 21:18 it go? What'd you do? How was golf? What 21:20 are you doing tonight? 21:21 >> You know what? So, my my sister just did 21:23 the most amazing thing with my for my 21:25 parents. She actually uh used chatbt to 21:28 ask to prep topics with them. 21:29 >> How do you do that? 21:30 >> Um, so she she typed in to chatt. She 21:33 was like, "What do you think people who 21:36 live in upstate New York in their 70s 21:38 who have nine grandchildren? What are 21:39 the types of questions that they want me 21:41 to ask them?" 21:42 >> What? 21:42 >> Yeah. Yeah. Because you know the 21:44 internet knows that demographic better 21:47 than we as individuals could possibly 21:49 know that demographic. 21:50 >> I can literally hear the person 21:51 listening tap tap tap tap tap tap tap 21:53 about everybody in their life. 21:55 >> Everyone in your life. You could use it 21:56 to prep topics. You could even say um 21:58 chat tpt uh what do you think this 22:01 colleague who doesn't really like me 22:03 because of this reason uh we got in an 22:06 argument once about this thing and now 22:08 they're mad at me. What would they want 22:09 me to do? What would they want to talk 22:11 about with me if anything? It's It's 22:13 wild. 22:13 >> You know, you're really smart. You 22:15 should consider teaching a class on 22:17 this. [laughter] 22:18 >> What is the second part of the talk 22:20 framework for communicating better? 22:22 >> Yeah. So, A is for asking. 22:24 >> Okay. 22:25 >> Yeah. Ask more questions, ask better 22:27 questions. 22:28 >> Now, you're making me panic because I 22:30 don't know if my question is going to be 22:31 better. What is a better question? 22:33 >> You're already a great question asker. I 22:34 mean, look, you've prepped topics and 22:36 you're asking so many questions. We're 22:38 already off to a great start, Mel. Um, 22:41 so what's so funny is a pattern that you 22:44 might pick up on here is that in every 22:46 conversation once you're in it, it's 22:49 very overwhelming. There's a you're 22:51 making tons of choices. You're trying to 22:52 listen to what the other person is 22:54 saying. You're trying to process it. 22:55 You're trying to do this tiny creativity 22:58 task of how do I come up with something 23:00 interesting to say back to them. That's 23:02 really hard on your brain. That's a lot 23:04 of cognitive effort. So, anything you 23:07 can do ahead of the conversation like 23:09 topic prep is helpful. And any sort of 23:11 trick that you can have during the 23:13 conversation can also be helpful. And 23:15 that's why asking questions is such a 23:18 superpower. You don't need to have 23:20 prepped it ahead of time. All you need 23:22 to do is listen to what your partner is 23:24 saying and ask about it. Ask more about 23:26 it. 23:27 >> Huh. Well, how can asking better 23:30 questions or asking more questions 23:32 improve connection and make you better 23:34 at communicating? Our inability to 23:36 understand other people's perspectives 23:38 is a huge barrier to conflict management 23:41 and connection. The antidote to that is 23:44 question asking. It is a direct pathway 23:47 to get what's in your head out of your 23:49 head and share it with me. Um, in my 23:52 class, we do an exercise called 23:54 neverending follow-up questions. 23:55 >> Do you want I have a feel like we're 23:57 about to do this. Yes. 23:58 >> Do you want to try it? 23:58 >> Yes. 23:59 >> Okay. I'll ask questions and you answer 24:01 and then maybe we can switch roles. 24:02 Okay. 24:03 >> Okay. Um, Mel, what did you have for 24:05 breakfast this morning? 24:06 >> Uh, a smoothie. 24:07 >> Oh, what was in your smoothie? 24:09 >> Uh, it was this protein powder and a 24:12 little bit of honey and two lemons that 24:14 we squeeze and then some water and then 24:17 zip it up and then slurp it down. 24:19 >> That sounds so healthy. If you had your 24:22 dream breakfast, would it be this 24:24 protein smoothie? What would be in your 24:26 dream breakfast? 24:27 >> Um, it depends on the day. I'm a very 24:30 kind of not picky is the wrong word. I'm 24:32 the kind of person that I eat based on 24:35 my mood. So some morning's dream 24:37 breakfast would be scrambled eggs, 24:40 avocado, kimchi. Another day it might be 24:43 the smoothie. Another day it might be 24:45 something else. 24:46 >> Amazing. So you like variety. Uh where 24:48 do you think that like need for variety 24:50 comes from every day? Why would you be 24:52 happy having the same thing every day? 24:53 >> I got to share how I feel. 24:55 >> Tell me tell me how you're doing it. 24:56 Tell me how it's going. 24:58 >> It's amazing because I can tell you're 25:00 really interested. And so as every 25:02 question you ask, I'm like, "Oh, she's 25:04 really interested in what I had for, oh, 25:06 my breakfast is very interesting." And 25:09 so you're demonstrating that saying, "In 25:13 order to be interesting, be interested 25:15 in somebody else." 25:16 >> Exactly. And you know, we both know, we 25:18 have this common knowledge that I'm 25:19 doing this very extreme thing. I'm 25:21 asking a follow-up question every time I 25:24 talked just then. 25:25 >> Yes. 25:25 >> That sounds so extreme. That sounds like 25:27 a lot of questions. And it also, some of 25:30 my students are like, "Isn't this 25:31 manipulative? If you know that that's 25:33 what you're going to do, doesn't that 25:34 undermine our authenticity? Do is the 25:37 other person going to actually feel like 25:38 you want to learn about their 25:40 breakfast?" And I'm like, "Guys, even if 25:42 you know that's what you're doing, I 25:43 still really care. I really want to hear 25:45 about your breakfast and your habits and 25:47 what you what you like. It's just a 25:49 nudge to do it a little bit better." 25:52 What if you get really good at asking 25:53 questions and you notice most people you 25:56 talk to never 25:59 ask you a question about you? 26:02 >> Listen, we've all been on that 26:03 [clears throat] date, Mel. We've all 26:04 been on a date with We call these people 26:06 ZQS. 26:07 >> ZQS. 26:08 >> Zero questions. Zero questioners. Um my 26:12 hope and what I want to say to the 26:14 people listening is don't leave a 26:16 conversation having asked zero 26:18 questions. But what do you do if you're 26:20 the one who's just poured into somebody 26:22 else? 26:23 >> Yeah. 26:23 >> And that it's like crickets. 26:25 >> Yeah. Well, as in all things in life, 26:27 you don't have control over what other 26:29 people do in a conversation. Reflecting 26:31 about what you do have control over, 26:33 like, okay, well, let's try and shift to 26:34 a new topic that maybe they're more 26:36 likely to ask me a question. Maybe we 26:38 shift to something where you have some 26:40 expertise and they know you have 26:42 expertise, so they should ask you even 26:44 more that you have um ask you questions. 26:47 So, you shouldn't like say something 26:49 insulting back or there's no backhanded 26:51 compliment that you're teaching in at 26:52 Harvard Business School to say to 26:54 somebody. 26:54 >> I No, 26:55 >> I I know that was kind of a joke, but it 26:58 is annoying as hell, though. 26:59 >> It's really annoying. It's really 27:00 annoying. 27:01 >> I guess you're just saying make a mental 27:02 note. 27:03 >> I mean, when And in the context, let's 27:04 go back to this context of dating. If 27:06 you're on a date with somebody, they go 27:07 a whole date, two whole dates, three 27:10 whole dates, not asking you much at all. 27:12 That could be a legitimate reason to not 27:14 keep dating them. Well, why would you? 27:16 >> Yeah, 27:17 >> if after two dates they don't ask you a 27:19 single question. 27:20 >> Yeah. 27:20 >> I mean, I think that's a gigantic red 27:23 flag. 27:24 >> I left a date in the middle after like 27:26 20 minutes once because 27:27 >> How did you do that? 27:27 >> I excuse myself to the bathroom. I 27:30 looked right into the mirror and I was 27:31 like, "This is never going to work. I 27:33 can't be with someone for the You can't 27:34 be with someone for the rest of your 27:36 life who within 20 minutes has made you 27:39 feel infuriated that they're not 27:41 interested in you." And so that was 27:43 that. And what we all want to know, 27:46 Professor Brooks, when you walked back 27:48 to the table, what did you say? 27:50 >> Yeah, I said, "This was really nice. Um, 27:51 we'll follow up. Um, good luck." And I 27:54 just I left. I did text him later and I 27:56 did give him the feedback. I did say, 27:59 you know, I really was It was a little 28:00 frustrating that he didn't ask me 28:02 anything about myself. I I don't usually 28:03 do that with people, but in that case, 28:05 it just seemed like he really needed to 28:07 know. 28:07 >> And what did he say? 28:09 >> I think he was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." 28:11 >> Well, at least he he said something. 28:13 Exactly. 28:14 >> Wow. Okay. 28:15 >> Still still no question though, M. 28:16 >> But based on the fact that this is your 28:18 area of expertise, what do you know 28:21 >> about those situations? 28:23 >> Yeah. 28:24 >> Where you're either have a family member 28:28 or you have a colleague or a boss or a 28:31 friend that actually never asks anything 28:34 about you. 28:35 >> Yeah. 28:35 >> Based on the research and your 28:37 experience, 28:38 what is the kind interpretation 28:41 >> Yeah. 28:41 >> of that situation? 28:42 >> Yeah. There's a lot that holds people 28:43 back from asking questions and it's not 28:45 all disinterest. Okay. 28:47 >> Um sometimes it's it's again this 28:49 self-centeredness. They so there are 28:51 some people who don't even think to ask 28:52 questions because they're so focused on 28:54 themselves and what's going on in their 28:56 own mind and what they can share and 28:58 dazzle you with. Um other times though 29:00 people realize they should be asking 29:02 questions and they struggle to do it 29:03 because they're afraid. They're afraid 29:05 of being too intrusive. They're afraid 29:08 that they ask something that it makes 29:10 them look incompetent, like they should 29:12 already know the answer. 29:14 >> Um, and these fears are usually 29:16 misplaced. Um, but those fears do hold 29:18 people back from asking questions. 29:19 >> Got it. That is a kind interpretation. 29:21 >> Yes, it is. 29:22 >> Where does listening 29:24 >> fall into your fourpart framework? 29:27 Because we've talked about topic 29:29 selection and asking questions, but what 29:32 about listening? Yeah, it's funny that 29:33 this framework is called talk because 29:35 listening is the glue that holds it all 29:37 together. Um, it's so very important. 29:42 Um, I know that you have attention 29:44 challenges. I also have attention 29:46 challenges. Turns out most humans have 29:48 attention challenges. Our minds, our 29:50 resting state of our minds is in a mind 29:52 wandering mode. And so the demand of 29:56 conversation to try and focus our 29:58 wandering minds on another person 30:00 continuously for a whole conversation is 30:03 incredibly challenging. It's takes a lot 30:05 of hard work. Some people are better at 30:07 it than others. But if you put in that 30:09 hard work to be engaged with somebody 30:12 even while your mind is wandering um you 30:15 should get credit for it. And in our 30:16 research we've studied the ways that you 30:18 can get credit for your good listening. 30:19 >> By get credit, what do you mean? So, get 30:21 credit meaning you want your partner to 30:23 know that you've that you've heard them. 30:25 >> Oh god, I feel like you're in the middle 30:28 of my marriage [laughter] 30:31 because I can't tell you how many times 30:35 I've been in a conversation with my 30:37 husband and I'm doing something so I 30:40 turn my back on him. 30:42 >> Yeah. 30:42 >> And he's like, "Are you listening to 30:44 me?" And then I pair it back word for 30:46 word what he just said. 30:47 >> Good. And then we get into this little 30:51 thing where he's like, "I didn't ask if 30:54 you heard me. 30:55 >> I asked if you're listening because I 30:57 don't feel like you are." 30:58 >> Okay, let's break down listening. This 31:00 is so this is incredibly common. Okay. 31:03 >> Um, so listening is three steps. The 31:06 first step is hearing and seeing your 31:09 partner. All of the cues that the person 31:12 is giving to you, their words, the sound 31:14 of their voice, their non-verbal 31:16 behaviors, everything that comes in 31:17 through your eyes and ears, that's the 31:19 sort of physical part of listening. Then 31:21 your brain does step two, which is I'm 31:23 going to think about some of the stuff 31:25 that I'm hearing and seeing. I'm going 31:27 to elaborate on it in my mind. Step 31:29 three is this unique thing that's 31:31 offered by conversation, which is I can 31:34 show back to you that I heard you and 31:36 that I was thinking about it. Okay? 31:38 >> And that's how we get our credit. And 31:39 that's how you get our credit. So the 31:40 decades of research on active listening 31:42 have mostly focused on non-verbals. So 31:44 the fact that you turned your back on 31:46 your husband makes him feel like you're 31:48 not listening to him cuz your 31:50 non-verbals were sort of inongruent with 31:52 what was going on in your mind. 31:54 >> Correct. 31:54 >> Okay. So he's sort of like, well, if 31:56 you're going to put in the hard work to 31:57 actually listen to me, like why don't 31:59 turn your back on me? That makes me feel 32:00 like you're not you don't care about 32:02 what I'm saying. 32:03 >> Okay. So many decades of focus on these 32:06 non-verbal cues, making eye contact, 32:08 nodding, smiling, facing someone, 32:10 leaning forward as you're talking to 32:12 them. Um, that's all great. That's like 32:15 listening 101. All right. So, don't turn 32:17 your back on your husband if you're 32:18 listening to him. 32:19 >> And I'm definitely not going to swivel 32:20 this chair while we're talking. 32:21 [laughter] 32:22 >> Exactly. We could try it. Um, but the 32:25 listening 2011 sort of more advanced is 32:28 using your words to show someone that 32:30 you've heard them. So while nodding and 32:33 smiling and facing someone can be faked, 32:36 right? Even if you were facing your 32:38 husband, you could have been nodding and 32:40 smiling and not listening to him. 32:42 >> The fact that you were able to repeat 32:43 back exactly what he said, he should be 32:46 thrilled, right? Like you really were 32:48 listening to him and you were able to 32:50 repeat it back, but you didn't make him 32:51 feel heard in that moment with your with 32:53 your non-verbal cues. 32:54 >> Yeah. Because the tone of voice was 32:55 snarky. I heard everything that you 32:57 said. So that was bad on you. 33:00 >> That's part of it. Yep. That's part of 33:01 it. But this using your words is really 33:04 important. So the best listening often 33:06 is spoken. It includes repeating back 33:08 what someone has said to you. It can be 33:10 invalidating or affirming them in their 33:12 feelings, saying like, "Oh, I'm hearing 33:13 that you sound a bit a little bit sad 33:15 about that. Um, it makes sense that you 33:17 would feel sad about whatever the fact 33:19 that you didn't win the role in the 33:20 school play." Just saying that it makes 33:23 sense that you feel X about why is one 33:28 of the most powerful phrases that you 33:29 can say to another person. 33:31 >> Well, one of the most powerful things 33:32 that I hear my colleagues say at work is 33:35 what I heard you say is this. Yeah. 33:36 >> And this is what I'm going to do. 33:38 >> Yeah. 33:39 >> Is that right? And then the second I 33:40 hear that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." 33:42 Heard. 33:43 >> Yeah. It's it's exactly right. So, 33:44 they're they're affirming they're 33:46 acknowledging what you said. They're 33:47 affirming what you said. They're also 33:48 checking to make sure they've understood 33:50 you explicitly. Linguists call this 33:52 grounding. It's making sure that your 33:54 shared understanding actually is shared 33:56 and it's accurate. And if it's not 33:58 accurate, it gives you the opportunity 33:59 to repair it, to correct it and say, 34:01 "Oh, that's not actually what I meant. 34:02 What I meant was this." And we're 34:05 constantly doing that checking and 34:07 repairing process while we talk to other 34:09 people. And so speaking, you're 34:10 listening is so powerful. Follow-up 34:12 questions do the same thing. You can 34:14 only follow up if you've heard what they 34:16 said before. 34:17 paraphrasing. If you're in a group and a 34:19 couple other people have said something, 34:21 you can say, "Okay, what I'm hearing 34:23 here is, I think we as a group feel like 34:26 we want to have fun, but we also need to 34:28 make this hard decision." Is that right? 34:30 So, just kind of summarizing what people 34:33 before you have said is another way of 34:35 doing it in the sort of group context. 34:37 >> Amazing. 34:37 >> Yeah. 34:38 >> Since you teach this at Harvard Business 34:40 School, I would love for you to just 34:43 explain why this matters. Yeah, 34:46 >> because 34:48 it may seem as though 34:55 it's a really important skill at work. 34:58 >> Yeah. 34:59 >> Because if you're in a meeting and 35:02 somebody all of a sudden is summarizing 35:05 everything that they heard 35:07 >> Yeah. 35:08 >> you turn and look at that person are 35:10 like, "Oh, that person's powerful." 35:12 >> Yeah. And so how does the skills that 35:16 we've talked about so far, topic 35:18 selection, asking, this active listening 35:22 that demonstrates something, translate 35:26 to more authority and influence, whether 35:28 it's at work or it's in your home or 35:30 it's in a friendship. 35:32 >> Yeah. This is where real power and 35:33 authority and influence come from. When 35:35 we think of people who are charismatic 35:37 and competent, this is what they're 35:39 doing. They are actually listening. 35:41 They're putting in the hard work to 35:42 listen to other people. They're putting 35:44 in the hard work to think about it. And 35:46 then they are saying it out loud. They 35:48 are saying, "Wow, I really heard you say 35:50 this and it seemed like you maybe feel 35:51 anxious about this thing. Can you tell 35:53 me more about that?" [gasps] 35:54 >> Just being able to do that is 35:56 incredible. It that is sort of the found 35:58 what competence is when we're talking 36:01 about interpersonal contexts. 36:03 >> It's so true. So the four-part framework 36:06 of talk, what is L? 36:08 >> L is levity, Mel. Thank goodness. It's 36:11 levity. And levity includes moments of 36:14 humor, but also unfunny moments of 36:17 warmth. And levity is the antidote for 36:20 boredom. 36:21 >> Why is humor such a powerful tool if you 36:26 want to be better at communicating? 36:27 >> Yeah. Listen, when we think of 36:29 conversations that have gone off the 36:30 rails or have not gone well, it's very 36:32 easy to think of conversations that 36:35 seemed angry or hostile or there was 36:37 conflict or disagreement because it's so 36:40 obvious. Like you're yelling at each 36:41 other, you're arguing. 36:42 >> Yeah. 36:43 >> But what is a quieter killer of 36:45 conversation and probably more common 36:47 than conflict is boredom and 36:49 disengagement. We're not interested in 36:51 what we're saying to each other. And as 36:54 soon as either person becomes 36:56 disinterested, you can't have that good 36:58 connection. You can't make progress 37:00 anymore. And levity, these fleeting 37:02 moments of sparkle and fizz, they pull 37:04 us back in. They they fix the boredom. 37:07 >> Sparkle and fizz. [laughter] 37:10 >> How do you create that? Because you have 37:12 some really interesting research about 37:13 how making fun of yourself 37:16 really is a powerful thing to do. Can 37:18 you can you share a bit of this research 37:19 for us? 37:20 >> Yes. Yes. So, this is something people 37:22 think about all the time. Should I 37:24 should I make fun of myself? Will that 37:26 make things feel more fun and funny? Um, 37:29 so you can do it in a way, you can 37:30 deliver it in a way that's like 37:32 self-deprecating humor. You're making 37:33 fun of yourself. You can also do it in a 37:35 way that's not funny at all, but you're 37:37 sharing your whole self, right? You're 37:39 not just talking about your successes, 37:41 but also uh the failures and struggles 37:44 that you encountered on your pathway to 37:46 success. This is a particularly 37:48 effective strategy for people who 37:50 already have high status, who are 37:52 powerful, who are respected, who are 37:54 known as competent, for leaders. It's a 37:56 way to say to everybody, "Hey, look, I'm 37:58 like you, too. I'm a human being. I'm I 38:00 don't do this thing right. Here's some 38:02 negative feedback that I got on my way 38:04 to success." Um, it's so so powerful. It 38:08 is riskier for people who are low status 38:10 to use self-deprecating humor or to rel 38:12 or to reveal their failures. When you're 38:14 low status, you have a narrower range of 38:18 options available to you that will be 38:20 seen. People might actually start to 38:22 question your competence. 38:24 >> Oh, and that's why being low status 38:26 feels so limiting and so constraining. 38:28 >> So, how do you as a Harvard Business 38:31 School professor 38:33 >> define low status? Cuz I I would imagine 38:36 if we cracked open people's heads, a lot 38:38 of people are so punishing to 38:42 themselves. 38:43 >> Totally. that they believe that they 38:46 have a low status based on self-doubt. 38:48 But what are you talking about? 38:50 >> So status for scholars is defined as 38:54 liking and respect and prestige in the 38:57 eyes of other people. 38:58 >> Okay. 38:59 >> Okay. So it's liking and do people 39:01 respect me? There's really good news 39:03 here, Mel, which is 39:05 >> every group has a sort of status 39:07 hierarchy. Okay. People pretty easily 39:10 know who's high status, who's low 39:12 status, who's in the middle. But the 39:14 good news is it changes much more 39:17 frequently than you think. It changes 39:19 not only from one conversation or one 39:22 place to the next. It changes from one 39:24 topic to the next. So imagine you're in 39:26 a group, you're having a meeting, 39:28 >> you're talking about something you don't 39:30 know anything about. Mhm. 39:32 >> You're low status on that topic and 39:33 there might be some rockus experts in 39:36 the room and that's intimidating and 39:37 you're like, "How can I contribute to 39:38 this? It's a terrible feeling. You feel 39:40 invisible and marginalized. 39:42 >> Yep." 39:43 >> All of a sudden, the conversation shifts 39:44 to talking about, "Oh, should we update 39:46 our maternity leave policy?" And all of 39:48 a sudden, if you're the only woman in 39:49 the room, you're all of a sudden you're 39:52 at the top of the heap. Okay? You have 39:54 the most lived experience, the most 39:56 knowledge to bring to this conversation. 39:59 So even if you're feeling low status on 40:02 many topics, if all of a sudden it 40:04 switches to something else, you might 40:06 all of a sudden become high status. And 40:08 we shouldn't underestimate the value of 40:10 that when we have value to bring. If 40:12 you're sitting in a conversation with 40:14 friends or something at work and you're 40:17 feeling that low status moment like I 40:19 got nothing to contribute, is there a 40:22 Harvard Business School sentence I can 40:24 say that is like preemptive, raises my 40:27 status without revealing that I don't 40:28 know what the hell I'm talking about? 40:30 >> I think the magic trick is asking 40:32 questions really. Okay. 40:34 >> Okay. So, if you're on a topic and 40:35 you're feeling like you don't know 40:36 anything, it's always valuable to ask 40:38 questions about even people who know 40:40 everything about it. It's helpful for 40:41 them to have a sounding board and 40:43 someone who's asking questions. They 40:45 don't know what other people don't know. 40:47 So sometimes when you're at low status, 40:49 you're in this privilege position to 40:50 say, "Look, nobody here knows what 40:52 you're talking about. Define this for 40:54 us. What What do you mean by status?" 40:56 Okay, let me just highlight that because 40:59 the person listening, I really want you 41:01 to understand this. Do you know the 41:04 confidence it displays 41:07 to be a person who really doesn't 41:10 understand what people are talking 41:11 about? And to say out loud, "Hold on a 41:14 second. You're 15 steps ahead. 41:17 >> You've lost some of us in this room. Can 41:20 you please back up and explain this 41:24 because I'm not tracking?" 41:26 >> Yeah. And it's not always going to be 41:27 appropriate, but sometimes it is. Well, 41:29 and what that says is first of all, I 41:31 value that I'm tracking along. And 41:33 number two, you can trust me because I'm 41:36 going to tell you when I don't know 41:37 something. And number three, I am 41:40 following with you, but I'm going to 41:42 slow you down and make sure everybody 41:44 comes along. I mean, that right there, 41:46 >> yeah, 41:46 >> that's how you raise your status because 41:50 it demonstrates a huge level of 41:52 confidence. 41:53 >> Before we get on to K, I have one more 41:55 thing to say to these low status 41:56 friends. 41:57 >> Yes, 41:57 >> we are with you. We have all been low 41:58 status. Our status changes constantly. 42:01 Um, one thing before we move from away 42:03 from levity, one of the most effective 42:05 ways to raise your status is to make 42:08 people laugh. It is it I think we have 42:11 an instinct that we think of humor as 42:13 this like extra bonus thing like, oh, 42:16 there's that funny guy. He made a good 42:18 joke. We're all laughing. That's great. 42:19 Now, back to the real stuff. [sighs] 42:21 When we look at what's really going on 42:23 with social dynamics in our research, if 42:26 you can make people laugh even one time 42:29 in a conversation, they are so much more 42:31 likely to vote for you as the leader of 42:33 that group. Just one joke, if you just 42:35 make people laugh, it's just a core 42:38 determinant of status, earning status, 42:41 and then keeping it once you've once 42:42 you've earned it. 42:43 >> I love that. So, what is the fourth 42:46 element of your four-part framework for 42:49 better communication? The fourth part is 42:51 K for kindness. And it's really this 42:55 virtue that we all learn as kids that we 42:58 should all be kind. I don't know. I 43:00 don't know about you, Mel. I I spent my 43:01 whole life really think like what do 43:03 kind people do daytoday, moment to 43:06 moment. What are they thinking about? 43:07 What are they saying? How are they 43:09 behaving? And I think one of the great 43:11 privileges of this new emerging science 43:13 of conversation is we're figuring it 43:16 out. what kind people who really care 43:18 about others how they communicate with 43:20 the people around them. So we attack 43:22 this in a very concrete way. 43:24 >> So what do they do? 43:25 >> Yeah. The first part is using respectful 43:28 language, right? So as soon as you cross 43:30 over into that zone where people are 43:32 feeling hurt or harmed or otherred or 43:34 excluded or bullied, 43:35 >> you have lost this kindness goal. Yep. 43:38 >> You've moved beyond it. It's gone. 43:40 >> And the second piece again is this uh 43:43 responsive listening. So putting in the 43:45 effort to hear other people, caring 43:47 about what they're sharing with you and 43:49 showing that you're listening to them 43:51 with your words and with your 43:52 non-verbals. 43:53 >> So how can you use this framework with a 43:56 colleague? 43:58 >> Every time all the time I mean you can 44:00 use it over email, over text and face to 44:03 face. Every time you interact with a 44:05 colleague, you should be thinking what 44:07 topics are valuable to them? How can I 44:09 bring value to them? What what are they 44:11 going to find interesting and exciting? 44:13 If you don't know ahead of time, you can 44:14 just ask them, "What are you excited 44:16 about lately? How can I be helpful? What 44:18 can I do? Um, what's going on? What are 44:20 you struggling with right now that I 44:21 might be able to help with?" Right? It's 44:23 just incredible. 44:24 >> How do you use the kindness part with 44:26 your partner? 44:28 >> Oh my gosh. The thing that makes 44:30 kindness so hard is that it is effortful 44:33 and it's constant. We have to battle 44:35 against all of these other things that 44:37 are draining our resources, especially 44:39 with someone you live with, right? 44:41 you're you see them all the time. 44:43 >> And so it's it's a big ask to say, well, 44:47 be kind all the time to this person. Put 44:49 in all of this effort all the time. But 44:52 I think trying to get over our 44:54 self-centered, our self-focus and really 44:57 trying to understand what our partner 44:59 cares about, figure out what they need, 45:02 whether it's just a hug or it's just a 45:04 cup of coffee, um figure out what they 45:07 need and help them get it. So, if 45:09 somebody is listening right now and 45:13 they're in a relationship where the 45:15 communication isn't working, 45:17 >> yeah, 45:18 >> you're frustrated, you misunderstand 45:20 each other, everything becomes some 45:22 stupid thing. 45:25 What is your advice based on your 45:28 research on the science of 45:29 communication? 45:30 >> Yeah, it sounds like that kind of 45:31 relationship sounds like you're stuck in 45:33 a bad equilibrium, a bad sort of 45:35 >> What does that mean? So, you're stuck in 45:36 the you've developed habits in a 45:38 specific relationship that aren't 45:40 working for you. Yep. Right. And you and 45:42 then every time you see that person, you 45:43 might fall back into that same habits 45:45 where you're getting defensive. You're 45:47 lashing out. You're making accusations 45:50 rather than these ideals that we're 45:52 trying to live up to of like, I want to 45:53 be interested in you. I want to figure 45:54 out your needs and help you. You've 45:57 fallen into the opposite. Yes. Right. 45:59 >> So, there's a couple of things. One is 46:01 uh we talk a lot about the power of 46:03 apologies. Um, and and this would be an 46:06 example when you could say, "It seems 46:07 like we've really fallen into some bad 46:09 habits where we're really getting 46:11 defensive or lashing out and arguing all 46:13 the time. What would it take for us to 46:15 sort of shift that? How can we get into 46:17 a different pattern? How can we change 46:19 our habits with each other? 46:21 >> It's going to require that both people 46:23 buy into it 46:24 >> because conversation is co-constructed. 46:27 It means that they have to buy in, you 46:29 have to buy in, and you both have to 46:31 try. And if you can't shift out of that 46:33 equilibrium, that's often when you know 46:35 relationships part ways. 46:36 >> Of course, cuz why would you want to be 46:38 in a relationship where 46:39 >> it's not rewarding. 46:40 >> It's not rewarding. You're both not 46:42 working on it. I want to go into some of 46:43 the most asked questions on a 46:45 communication. I mean, these are the 46:46 things that people write in about. They 46:49 go crazy viral and they want to know. 46:51 Okay, so small talk 46:56 is so draining. 46:58 Everybody hates it. What does your 47:02 research have to say about small talk 47:05 and why it matters? 47:06 >> For all of the people who hate small 47:07 talk, you're right. It sucks. It's It's 47:10 shallow. It's meaningless. It feels like 47:12 there's this alarm bell going off on 47:13 your mind of like, why can't we get past 47:15 this? Why can't we get to the real 47:16 stuff? I want We all want the real 47:18 stuff. How can I get there? But also, 47:21 you cannot avoid small talk. It's how 47:24 every conversation starts between 47:26 strangers, between people who haven't 47:28 seen each other in a while, even people 47:30 who've seen each other earlier in the 47:32 day. You usually start when you see him 47:34 at night and say, "How was your day?" 47:35 >> Right? 47:36 >> It is a well-worn social ritual and it's 47:39 important because it's the place where 47:41 we search for better things. 47:43 >> Okay. 47:43 >> Okay. It's the It's the easy warmup. 47:45 >> It's the warm-up. It's the It's where we 47:47 are. It's the pregame, right? It's a 47:48 it's the warm-up and we're searching for 47:51 ways to get to more meaningful talk. We 47:54 talk about in in my course and in my 47:55 book, we talk about a topic pyramid. 47:58 Okay, the topic pyramid has three 48:00 layers. 48:01 >> Okay, the bottom layer is small talk 48:03 topics. These are topics you can talk 48:05 about with anyone. It's the weather, 48:07 it's the weekend, whatever you're 48:09 eating, easy stuff that you could talk 48:11 about with anybody. 48:12 >> Yep. 48:13 >> They're not evil. They're not bad. They 48:15 are often unrewarding, but they're a 48:17 place where you are should be searching 48:19 to climb the pyramid to the second tier, 48:21 which is more tailored talk. It's more, 48:24 it can be include more disclosure about 48:26 your own life. It can be more 48:27 personalized. It might just be a topic 48:29 you're excited about. Has nothing about, 48:31 you know, sharing about your life. 48:32 You're just some, it's something your 48:34 partner's really jazzed about. 48:35 >> So, this this second layer of the 48:37 pyramid is where your topic preparation 48:39 comes in. Correct. 48:40 >> And asking questions come in. 48:42 >> You could prep small talk topics, too. 48:44 that could that are more likely to be 48:46 launch pads to the second lay. So a 48:48 question like Mel, what are you good at 48:50 that you really hate doing? 48:55 >> Picking up the dog poop. 48:56 >> Yeah, exactly. 48:57 >> Hate it. [laughter] 48:59 >> But I bet you're great at it. I mean, 49:01 how 49:01 >> Yeah, cuz I don't want to step in it, 49:02 but I don't like it. 49:04 >> And then I would ask a question like, 49:05 uh, how many dogs you have or like how 49:07 often do you have to pick up its poop? 49:08 Or like right now we're 49:10 >> It's amazing how much dogs poop. Like 49:12 it's unbelievable. 49:13 >> Absolutely. Has it ever made you feel 49:15 like you just don't want dogs anymore? 49:16 Yes. So, we're very quickly going to get 49:18 to a place where I start to figure out 49:21 how you really feel about animals, how 49:23 you really feel about caretaking, how 49:25 you feel about cleaning up your kids 49:27 dirty diapers. Like, we're going to get 49:29 to a place that feels much more 49:30 personal. And that opening question is 49:34 that was a small I could have asked. 49:35 >> What was the question again? I've 49:36 already forgot it because I was 49:37 interested in what we were talking 49:38 about. 49:38 >> Interesting. Yeah. So, it was um what 49:40 are you good at that you don't like 49:41 doing? What are you good at that you 49:42 don't like? 49:43 >> You could also ask um what are you bad 49:45 at that you'd like to get better at? 49:48 >> Uh Spanish. 49:49 >> Great. 49:49 >> I don't know it, so I'm really 49:51 [laughter] bad at it. 49:53 >> Buenos. 49:56 That's So anyway, so there are there are 49:58 open-ended questions that would that are 50:00 small talk topics that should be thought 50:02 of as sort of like launching pads that 50:04 we're moving to the second tier that 50:05 becomes more personalized. I'm learning 50:07 so much about you and your life so 50:08 quickly. What are you good at that you 50:10 don't like doing? 50:11 >> Oh, giving birth. 50:13 >> Oh, [laughter] I guess you popped out 50:15 three kids, so you are pretty good at 50:16 that. 50:18 >> I think what do I what am I good at that 50:19 I don't like doing? Oh, man. Running. 50:23 Probably. I love walking. I don't love 50:26 running. Yeah, same. 50:27 >> Yeah, I 50:28 >> Why do you run if you don't like it? 50:29 >> Exact hard on myself. I want to be in 50:32 good shape. But I stopped. As I've been 50:34 getting older, I'm realizing you don't 50:35 need to do those things. 50:36 >> Nope. Especially as your hormones 50:38 change. Exactly. And walking is so 50:40 lovely. I I love walking. And so now I'm 50:43 gentler with myself and like it's not a 50:46 failure to walk. 50:47 >> Nope. 50:47 >> It's a win. 50:48 >> What is the top layer of the pyramid? 50:50 >> Top layer of the pyramid is um deep 50:52 talk. We were getting there. We were 50:54 getting really close. Um the more 50:56 follow-up questions you ask, the more 50:58 likely you are to get to that top. You 51:00 know it when you're there, Mel. It feels 51:02 >> I almost pretended to be your therapist. 51:04 I was about to go deep into them. Why 51:05 you're so [laughter] hard on yourself? 51:07 And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know if 51:08 Professor Brooks wants me to go there. 51:10 >> We could we could do it." [laughter] Um, 51:13 but you know, when you're at that deep 51:14 talk with a friend, with a therapist, 51:16 with your parents, whatever. It's not 51:18 every conversation is bound to go there. 51:20 You don't need to have a deep 51:21 conversation with, you know, your 51:22 barista or even your work colleagues 51:24 >> because people would file a restraining 51:26 order against you for [laughter] like 51:28 really making them uncomfortable. 51:29 >> Sometimes it's not their business, 51:31 right? There are some contacts where 51:32 it's appropriate and called for and 51:33 magical and some where it's not. But 51:35 when you do find yourself there, you 51:37 should appreciate it. It's really 51:39 special. It's like we're all on these 51:40 journeys looking for those magical 51:42 moments of connection and sometimes they 51:44 happen. Professor Brooks, what do you do 51:47 if you're in a situation where someone 51:50 is dominating the conversation and it's 51:53 really hard to get a word in? Like how 51:56 do you effectively communicate with 51:57 somebody who's a bit of a bulldozer? Can 51:59 I ask you a follow-up question before I 52:01 answer, which is 52:02 >> when you're thinking of people 52:03 dominating a conversation, 52:06 >> it's almost always in a group. Are you 52:08 imagining a group? 52:09 >> Yeah, I guess I am. Cuz I'm imagining 52:12 being at like a cocktail party. 52:14 >> Yeah. 52:15 >> And people are kind of standing in a 52:17 little bit of a circle. 52:18 >> Yep. Maybe a work meeting. 52:20 >> Or a work meeting. 52:21 >> Yep. 52:22 >> And you know, of course, my fear is that 52:24 most people that I know think it's me. 52:26 >> I was going to say, have you been guilty 52:27 of this yourself? Oh, in the past, of 52:30 course, when I've had too much to drink. 52:32 Definitely. Um, I work hard at listening 52:37 at work rather than talking. 52:39 >> That's right. And it is hard work, 52:40 especially for someone who has a lot to 52:41 say, has a lot of ideas, who is high 52:43 status or is in the habit of sharing uh 52:46 what's on their mind. So, I ask you this 52:48 question because when we think of 52:51 dominating airtime, it's almost always 52:53 in a group. M when you are in a 52:56 one-on-one conversation, we have easier 52:59 tools to interrupt someone or to sort of 53:02 plow over them and or even a little bit 53:04 signal that they're talking too much, 53:06 right? It's easier in a group. It's 53:09 maddening. You have way less control 53:11 over stopping someone. And it's really 53:14 hard for high status people to give 53:16 other people that space. I too have to 53:18 work very hard to not talk too much in a 53:22 group setting. I got a lot to say and a 53:25 lot of energy, right? And that takes 53:27 effort and it's like a skill unto itself 53:29 to give other people that space. 53:30 >> So, let's say that you're going to a 53:32 family gathering. 53:34 >> Yeah. 53:34 >> And there's a particular person in your 53:36 family. 53:37 >> Yeah. 53:38 >> Who just holds court. 53:40 >> Yeah. 53:40 >> Nobody can get in a word edge-wise. 53:42 >> We all know. We all know Uncle Paulie. 53:44 Yeah. Yeah. 53:45 >> So, based on your research, Professor 53:47 Brooks, what do you do? 53:50 One idea is going back to the asking 53:53 maxim. When you're in a group, you have 53:56 these opportunities. You can turn the 53:59 attention to someone else very 54:02 deliberately and say, "Sarah, I was I 54:06 wanted to hear about what I wanted to 54:08 hear about that basketball team you're 54:09 coaching. What can you tell us about 54:10 that?" you are able to literally turn 54:13 the entire group's attention to someone 54:15 else and to a new topic so that that 54:18 person cannot cannot continue to 54:20 dominate the conversation. 54:21 >> And if you're listening and not watching 54:24 this on YouTube, I want to make sure you 54:26 know that what Professor Brooks did is 54:28 she literally turned her body and held 54:31 up her hand and pointed at another 54:33 person. 54:34 >> Yeah. both verbally and physically just 54:38 directing the traffic in a different 54:40 direction 54:41 >> and that's what we're doing in groups. 54:42 We are d we are all directing traffic. 54:44 We are stewards of the conversation 54:47 especially non-verbbally. Okay. So we 54:49 have some research about eye gaze in 54:51 particular. This is something high 54:52 status people can do really really well. 54:55 Human beings have a tendency to look 54:58 with their eyes at the highest status 55:00 members of the group. You expect them to 55:02 speak more. they do speak more and you 55:05 tend to look at them for their 55:06 reactions. This makes the low status 55:08 people in the group feel invisible 55:10 because they literally are invisible. 55:12 Nobody's looking at them and it makes 55:14 them feel like even when they have 55:16 something great to say, they shouldn't 55:18 say it. They're not welcome to say it. 55:20 No one's inviting them to speak with 55:21 their gaze. So, we ran experiments where 55:24 we had leaders of a group very 55:26 purposefully make more equitable eye 55:28 gaze with everyone in the group. And it 55:31 meant that later in the conversation, 55:33 those low status group members were more 55:35 likely to speak without the leader 55:37 saying a word, without them cold calling 55:39 them and saying, "Hey Sarah, we haven't 55:41 heard from you in a while. What's on 55:42 your mind?" Which is mortifying, by the 55:44 way, if you call on them in a moment 55:46 when they don't have something to add. 55:48 But I gaze is this much more gentle, 55:50 more subtle way of saying, "Hey, I see 55:52 you. I care about you. I want to hear 55:54 from you." 55:55 >> Professor Brooks, how do you handle 55:57 being interrupted? 55:59 >> [laughter] 56:00 >> I love being interrupted. Um 56:02 >> I mean like a person who doesn't. So 56:04 most women as you know are interrupted 56:07 at work and by their families more than 56:09 men. 56:09 >> Yeah. 56:10 >> And so how do you handle somebody who 56:13 interrupts you? 56:14 >> So let me make the distinction that you 56:16 even we just had a little moment of 56:17 misunderstanding I want to call out 56:19 which is there are two different types 56:21 of interruptions. One is an on topic 56:24 interruption. You're staying on the same 56:26 topic. You're just like finishing each 56:28 other's sentences. It's bubbling. It's 56:31 fun. It's exciting. It's great. That's a 56:34 great type of interruption. We should do 56:35 more of that. And I love interacting 56:37 with people who are so engaged in what 56:39 I'm saying that they're they interrupt 56:41 me before I can finish. That's great. 56:44 Off-topic interruptions are the ones 56:46 that give interruptions a bad rap. It's 56:48 like somebody doineering cuts you off, 56:50 is clearly not interested in what you're 56:52 saying, and shifts the conversation to 56:54 something else entirely. It's rude. It 56:57 makes you feel devalued and disrespected 57:01 and no one should be doing that. Um, if 57:04 someone does that, I would try and make 57:06 a joke about it uh in the moment. I if 57:08 you're feeling like upset about it, you 57:11 could be like, "Well, let me uh I was 57:12 just going to finish my thing." You 57:14 know, you could kind of make a joke 57:16 about it because everybody else who's in 57:18 the group has seen this dynamic now play 57:20 out and you're all in on it. And are you 57:22 going to call it out or are you going to 57:24 let it slide and sort of be happy to sit 57:26 in this low status position? I'm not 57:28 happy to sit there and I really don't 57:30 want other people to sit there either. 57:31 >> What would your counsel be to the person 57:33 listening? Because I think most people 57:35 that it gets done to, you feel so 57:37 disempowered you can't make a joke about 57:39 it. M 57:40 >> so is there something if you're going to 57:43 a family function or you have meetings 57:46 at work and you just know that this is a 57:48 dynamic with a particular person that 57:51 you can rehearse that not only gives you 57:55 a response but actually raises your 57:59 status or somehow makes you feel a 58:03 little bit more powerful. 58:04 >> Here's what I would do really. Um, I 58:06 spent so many years of my career in a 58:07 low status position. And I think one 58:10 thing I found very comforting is knowing 58:12 that you have good relationships with 58:14 the other people in the room. And so 58:16 what you could do is go to your work 58:18 bestie who's also going to be there and 58:20 say, you know, this guy always cuts me 58:23 off. It's really upsetting. I don't feel 58:25 comfortable making a joke out of it. I 58:27 do not feel comfortable giving him that 58:29 feedback, but it really is upsetting to 58:30 me. So, I'm wondering if if the 58:32 opportunity presents itself, if you 58:34 could say something like, and it doesn't 58:36 need to be offensive. It doesn't need to 58:38 be aggressive. It could just be like, 58:40 "Oh, I'd actually really love to hear 58:41 what Allison was going to I would love 58:43 to hear Allison finish what she was 58:44 saying." 58:45 >> Oo, that's 58:46 >> And now you're really collaborating in 58:48 the conversation. And it's and and 58:50 friends want to do that for you, right? 58:51 And it's sincere. She probably does want 58:53 to hear what you were going to 58:53 [laughter] say. And by the way, that's 58:55 an example of tea in the four-part 58:57 framework, which is you just thought of 58:58 a topic and you've prepared for it and 59:01 now you're ready for it. 59:03 >> Um, Professor Brooks, what are some 59:05 strategies you can use based on your 59:07 research if somebody belittles you, 59:10 >> you know, whether it's like your mom 59:11 commenting on your weight or 59:14 I'm the primary bread winner and there 59:16 are these little digs that family 59:18 members make at my husband Chris. Like 59:21 what is the response to belittlement? 59:24 >> You know what? It's it it's so often 59:26 that the people we love the most and are 59:28 closest to are the victims of these 59:30 little moments of belittlement because 59:32 they kind of leak out. Usually when 59:35 someone 59:36 >> is making a belittling comment, it's 59:38 really not about whatever they're 59:40 talking about. It's about something 59:41 deeper that they're it's it's really 59:43 it's usually about them, right? That 59:45 they're feeling insecure about something 59:47 and they're taking it out on you. Mhm. 59:50 >> This is true of all moments of 59:52 difficulty in conversation is for 59:54 whatever reason we have the tendency to 59:56 have these moments that shoot down to 59:58 these hurtful parts of our identities. 60:01 When I used to teach negotiation, it was 60:03 so, you know, when you're negotiating 60:05 for a house, it's so obviously fraught 60:07 and hard. But what I find so much more 60:09 interesting are these little moments and 60:11 conversations that should be easy and 60:13 fun. and all of a sudden someone makes a 60:15 little belittling comment and you're 60:17 like, "Whoa, I thought this was supposed 60:18 to be fun and easy and sort of routine. 60:21 What's going on here?" That can shoot 60:23 down to our identities of this sort of 60:24 hot magma at the core of who we are in 60:27 hurtful ways. And in those moments, we 60:29 tend to be very defensive. 60:31 >> Yeah. Or quiet, silenced, 60:33 >> attacked. So, there's a really exciting 60:36 emerging science of receptiveness here 60:39 that can help us. um scientists Hannah 60:42 Collins, uh Mike Yman's, Julia Mson have 60:45 studied what good conversationalists, 60:48 kind people, how they manage these 60:50 moments when all of a sudden things get 60:52 heated for whatever reason. 60:53 >> What do you do? 60:54 >> Um and they looked at the language that 60:56 people use uh to confront this. And 60:59 there's a really concrete recipe of 61:02 being receptive to an opposing viewpoint 61:04 that can help so that the conversation 61:06 doesn't escalate and get overheated in 61:08 that moment. And it's quite a a skill 61:10 set to develop. It makes me feel more 61:13 confident to engage. 61:14 >> What is it? 61:15 >> So the first piece is acknowledgement. 61:17 Saying I think I heard you say here what 61:19 I'm hearing is right. So going back to 61:21 this acknowledgement affirmation. It 61:23 makes sense that you would feel that 61:25 way. Like maybe sometimes I'm not doing 61:27 enough. It makes sense that you feel 61:29 that way, but you saying that also makes 61:30 me feel a certain way. But affirming 61:33 their feelings before you go on to 61:35 disagree with them 61:36 >> and say you're a piece of for 61:37 saying that. No, you're not supposed to 61:38 say that [laughter] part. [gasps] 61:40 >> No, I mean I think you can even say that 61:42 like it makes sense that you feel that 61:43 way and also it's not a particularly 61:46 kind you can see why I would be upset by 61:48 it. It both can be true, right? It makes 61:50 sense that you feel this way. It makes 61:52 sense that you're stressed or tired and 61:53 you said something that you probably 61:55 wouldn't say if you were not stressed or 61:56 tired. That all makes sense. You're I 61:58 realize you're a human being and I love 62:00 and respect you, but also what you just 62:03 said was hurtful to me. if you can come 62:05 with that mindset. So acknowledgement, 62:07 affirmation, um positive framing. There 62:11 are words that they call um oh gosh, 62:14 it's like dogmatic or explaining words. 62:16 So words like because and therefore are 62:19 very hard to be on the receiving end of 62:22 that express too much certainty. Like 62:24 you're wrong because of this, therefore 62:27 I'm not talking to you anymore. Those 62:29 are escalation words. They're expressing 62:31 too much certainty, too much sort of 62:34 righteousness, and they're very hard to 62:36 hear. On the other end, there's a 62:38 strategy that I like to use that 62:40 combines all of these receptiveness, all 62:42 the receptiveness language, and that's 62:44 dividing yourself into multiple parts in 62:46 the moment. 62:47 >> Let me give an example cuz I think this 62:48 is something a lot of people struggle 62:50 with. 62:50 >> Yeah. Let's just say that 62:53 it's coming from a place of concern, 62:56 but it is, you know, some sort of 62:59 comment like, "I just don't understand 63:01 why you can't meet somebody." 63:03 >> Mhm. 63:04 >> Or, 63:05 "Why do you stay in that job 63:08 when they don't pay you what you 63:10 deserve?" 63:10 >> Yeah. And you know what's funny? These 63:13 comments that are so hurtful, it's 63:15 coming from a place of love. They want 63:17 you to meet somebody because they want 63:18 you to be happy and they think you're 63:19 great. 63:20 >> But it's still annoying that they're 63:21 saying it. And so how can I use this 63:23 framework if I'm saying to you like why 63:25 haven't you met somebody? I just don't 63:27 understand it. 63:28 >> So you in that moment could say as your 63:31 daughter I am so grateful that you love 63:33 me so much that you want me to meet 63:35 somebody and you think I'm so great that 63:37 I deserve to be with somebody. at the 63:39 same time putting on my whatever 63:42 therapist hat, friend hat, feedback 63:44 giver hat, um you could see why maybe 63:47 that like saying this to me isn't 63:48 actually that helpful to me in this 63:50 moment. So saying like affirming them 63:53 before then going on and saying also I 63:56 don't find that very motivating. Like I 63:58 don't find this very helpful to me. I 64:00 find this dividing yourself into 64:02 multiple parts so helpful because it's 64:04 true. I always feel that way. I always 64:07 want to support my friends and loved 64:08 ones. I always understand where they're 64:10 coming from and also what they're saying 64:14 is often not nice. So, being able to 64:18 express both of those sentiments within 64:20 the same breath can be really, really 64:23 empowering. And if you're going to be 64:25 going into a situation where somebody 64:27 does this a lot, you can kind of 64:29 prepare. 64:29 >> Yes, you can. and know that if they say 64:32 this thing, whether it's about your job 64:34 or about your health or about your 64:36 relationship status, that you can 64:38 acknowledge and then go and not that 64:41 helpful. 64:41 >> Yeah. 64:42 >> Not that helpful. 64:43 >> Now, if it's somebody who you've tried 64:45 this approach, you've tried to give them 64:46 this feedback, they keep doing it or 64:48 they keep, you know, raising topics you 64:50 don't want to argue over, it is actually 64:52 okay to not engage with them about it. 64:54 You know, if your parents keep bringing 64:56 up their different political views, you 64:58 don't have to engage with them about it. 64:59 That's fine. You don't have to. 65:00 >> But how about you using the science of 65:01 of communication? 65:03 >> Yeah. 65:03 >> Do that without just being like, I agree 65:06 to disagree. I guess we see things 65:08 differently. No, seriously, like there's 65:10 so much stonewalling. Yeah. 65:12 >> Of each other. 65:13 >> It helps to have, again, back to this 65:15 tea, if you have other good topics, it 65:17 helps a lot to just move quickly to a 65:19 different topic that is actually 65:21 mutually rewarding for you instead of 65:24 uh, you know, proliferating on this. I 65:26 don't want to talk about this or 65:27 arguing, arguing. No, no, just shift 65:29 like, hey, have you what TV show are you 65:30 watching these? I've been watching this 65:31 really cool TV show. Can I tell you 65:33 about it? 65:33 >> So, direct the traffic in a different 65:35 direction. 65:35 >> Exactly. 65:36 >> What does the science of conversation 65:38 say about someone who's very 65:40 argumentative or raise their tone of 65:42 voice? What should you do if somebody 65:45 starts yelling at you or they're or 65:46 they're like I used to be. You get 65:48 aggravated. You're like, ah. And the 65:49 volume goes up. 65:50 >> Yeah. So, we talk about this wheel of 65:53 feelings. I've done so much research on 65:54 these high arousal emot negative 65:56 emotions, whether it's anxiety or anger 65:59 or just being upset. Um, there are lots 66:03 of emotion regulation strategies that 66:04 you can use during a conversation as 66:06 well. Um, you can try and just shift, 66:10 reframe the situation, change the 66:12 situation. 66:12 >> Is it [clears throat] okay to ever just 66:14 say, "I'm happy to talk to you, but not 66:17 when you use this tone of voice." 66:18 >> Yeah. A therapist will often talk about 66:20 getting into the sort of like green zone 66:22 and it can take like 20 minutes to for 66:24 your body to calm down. Once someone is 66:26 upset, it's almost like too late. You 66:28 It's very hard to engage once once 66:30 someone is angry or overheated. 66:32 >> Yeah. 66:33 >> Instead of saying like, "Let's just take 66:34 a time out. Let's calm down a little 66:36 bit. Let's circle back to this in a 66:37 little bit when we're both okay. Let's 66:39 take a break." Um and that's exactly 66:42 right. You It's easy to do in a 66:43 conversation. You can change it. Let's 66:45 go for a walk. Let's go to a different 66:47 room. I'm going to go get a drink and 66:49 then I'm going to come back and we 66:50 >> A very stiff one. 66:51 >> A very stiff drink. [laughter] 66:52 >> Just kidding. I'll make it worse. 66:53 >> Come back and let's pick this up. Um or 66:56 even see if you want to keep talking 66:58 about it by then. 66:59 >> How can you make it sure that you always 67:02 have something interesting to talk 67:03 about? 67:04 >> Oh, so two answers to this. First, as 67:08 always, topic prep is your friend, 67:11 right? So, thinking ahead about things 67:12 that the other person will find 67:14 interesting or exciting to talk about. 67:16 But the second part of my answer is that 67:18 it's almost the wrong question. That's 67:19 the it's the wrong mindset. Huh? The key 67:22 to being a good conversationalist is not 67:24 about being interesting. It's about 67:26 being interested in the other person. So 67:28 if you go in with this mindset of like 67:30 how do I be, you know, Mr. or Mrs. cool? 67:33 How do I be charismatic? How do I bring 67:34 all the funny stories? Even the mindset 67:36 of how do I be funny is not correct. The 67:39 the goal is how do I be optimally 67:42 interested in the other person? How do 67:44 we together find the fun? Not not how do 67:47 I be funny? 67:48 >> And that feels a lot less full of 67:50 pressure because if I look at you as the 67:52 source of everything interesting to talk 67:54 about, then all I have to do is ask 67:56 questions and be interested. 67:57 >> And every person on the earth is the 67:58 ultimate source of being. Everyone has 68:00 so many lived experiences that you can 68:02 learn from everyone. And they are just 68:04 like an endless font of things to be 68:07 discovered through question asking. 68:09 >> How can you exit a conversation 68:12 gracefully? 68:13 There's really nice research on 68:15 conversational endings that has come to 68:16 light in the last 5 years. When you 68:19 think of conversation as this almost 68:20 impossible to solve coordination 68:22 problem, the final coordination decision 68:25 is when to leave. It's why it always 68:27 feels so awkward and weird because I 68:29 can't possibly know when you want to be 68:31 done. You can't know when I'm need to be 68:33 done or want to be done. So, we just 68:35 need to get comfortable with the fact 68:37 that like you're never going to get it 68:38 right. Nobody knows when to end a 68:40 conversation. Most people are always 68:42 going to be dissatisfied. They might 68:43 have wanted it to be longer. They might 68:45 have wanted it to be shorter. So, 68:47 embracing and accepting that 68:49 awkwardness, that difficulty, just 68:50 saying, "Nobody knows." We're just going 68:52 to say, "This was great. I loved it. I 68:54 can't wait for the next one. Bye. That's 68:57 it. That's it." End. 68:58 >> This was great. I can't wait for the 69:00 next one. I love it. So, if you could 69:03 leave the person who's listening to us 69:07 right now, 69:08 >> Yeah. with one takeaway or one lesson or 69:11 one thing to do that leverages the 69:16 science of conversation 69:18 and it will make their life a little 69:20 better. What would that one thing be? 69:22 >> Oh, it's so hard to pick just one. I 69:25 think it would be thinking ahead a 69:27 little bit more, 69:29 >> prepping topics, giving even a little 69:32 bit of forethought to the people you're 69:34 going to see in a day. Think a little 69:36 bit about what they're going to find 69:37 interesting and productive to talk 69:39 about. You could write it down in your 69:41 Google calendar notes. You could write 69:42 on a little piece of paper. Just think 69:44 it in your head. You're more likely to 69:46 have a better conversation once you're 69:47 together with them. 69:49 >> And what are your parting words? 69:51 >> My parting words are about grace. So, I 69:57 think because we learn to talk to each 69:59 other when we're toddlers and we spend 70:00 our whole lives talking to each other 70:02 every day with a huge array of partners, 70:05 by the time we get to be adults, we feel 70:06 like we should be perfect at it or we 70:08 should be great at it and it's second 70:09 nature and we should be experts. But 70:12 when you look under the hood of 70:13 conversation, you realize actually 70:16 conversations are kind of a train wreck. 70:18 We're interrupting each other all the 70:19 time. We have halffinish ideas and we're 70:22 not making sense a lot of the time. And 70:24 so I think giving yourself a little bit 70:26 more grace that you're not perfect. 70:29 You're never going to be perfect. Even 70:30 the best communicators aren't perfect. 70:32 And giving other people more grace. 70:34 They're going to say they're going to 70:35 say things that make you mad. They're 70:36 going to say things that hurt your 70:37 feelings. And it's okay. This is how 70:39 this works. If it's born of love, count 70:42 yourself lucky. 70:44 >> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, this has 70:46 been great. 70:47 >> Thank you so much for looking forward 70:49 [laughter] to seeing you again. 70:55 >> [laughter] 70:57 >> Bye. Bye. 71:00 And I would uh be remiss if I also 71:04 didn't say thank you to you. This has 71:07 been great. And I'm really proud of you 71:10 for taking the time to listen to 71:11 something that will absolutely improve 71:14 your life. And everything that Professor 71:17 Brooks poured into us today, I hope you 71:20 try it. I hope you plan your topics 71:22 because being a better communicator will 71:25 improve your life. And in case no one 71:27 else tells you, I wanted to be sure to 71:29 communicate and tell you that I love you 71:30 and I believe in you and I believe in 71:32 your ability to create a better life. So 71:35 take everything you just learned and go 71:37 use it to make your life better. And 71:39 I'll be waiting for you in the very next 71:41 episode as soon as you hit play. I'll 71:43 see you there. Thank you for being here 71:46 with me on YouTube and thank you for 71:47 watching all the way to the end. Wasn't 71:49 it so cool to get all of these 71:52 strategies and insight from a professor 71:54 at Harvard Business School? I love this 71:57 kind of stuff and I know you love it 71:58 too. So, thank you for watching. Thank 72:00 you for being here till the end. Thank 72:02 you for sharing this with people in your 72:04 life who you know deserve this 72:06 information too. And one more thing, it 72:08 is a goal of mine that 50% of the people 72:11 that watch this channel are subscribers 72:13 and it's free. So, I know you're the 72:16 kind of person that loves supporting 72:17 people that support you. I know you love 72:19 getting all these incredible videos with 72:21 worldrenowned experts. And so, one thing 72:23 you could do for me, just hit subscribe. 72:25 It tells me that you really love what 72:26 we're doing here, and it helps support 72:28 my team in bringing you new videos every 72:30 single day as a free resource for you 72:32 and the people that you care about. All 72:34 righty. I know what you're thinking. 72:35 Mel, I love this. What's the next video 72:38 I should watch? Great question. I think 72:40 you should check out this one. I think 72:41 you're going to love it. And I'm going 72:42 to be waiting for you in it the second 72:45 you hit play. I'll see you there.